What to do with Jack???

mudpuppy

It's very empowering and mentally beneficial to teach dogs appropriate ways to ask their owners for the things they need like food.

Beneficial to the human or the dog?  Me thinks human exclusively because food is essential to life, yes life or death of the dog and to tangle it over an unbalanced dog is .....well not something I would do.  Why can't you accept some dogs just can't handle it.  I speak from experience.

well i have moca, who isnt unlike jack... i actually stopped using treats for most training purposes and just use praise. for a dog that is quite happy with getting praise, i dont see any problems in NOT using treats.

i have tried hiding the treats and it works until the FIRST treat is given. then the crazyness starts...

i just dont get it. why should i have to TRAIN my dog control herself around treats so i can use the treats to TRAIN something else. just seems way complicated. instead the way i do it, i only need to concentrate on training appropriate behaviour for meal time. this is much easier, simply because meal times are more of a routine. they are always the same. whereas situations might vary for training different things.

seriously. i tried training "watch me" with treats and it took me FOREVER to get her to look at ME instead of the treat. once i just gave up and trained with only praise: VOILA! that very first session she got that "oh now i get it" look... PLUS she was way more relaxed....

i know training with treats is the conventional way and it works very well with most dogs, but it isnt a MUST. if your dog has trouble concentrating, and likes some attention, then ONLY praise will work just as well.

essential to life, yes life or death of the dog and to tangle it over an unbalanced dog is .....well not something I would do.  Why can't you accept some dogs just can't handle it.  I speak from experience.

Ted tells me that hunting, chasing, and killing sheep, or ducks, is essential to his life.  He's bred to crave it - we've taken an instinct essential for life (hunt/kill) and actually increased it and focused it for dogs like him.

He tells me that he wants to come live with you because I am mean and make him control his impulses around livestock.  Around here he just gets nasty old chicken, pork, and dead lamb and goat, and potato and oatmeal, and there's all that live meat out there!  Not only here, but cattle next door, and a donkey, and horses down the road - there's so much potential fun to be had.

It's terrible how I tease them and make these dogs control their drives and only get to work livestock by my rules. 

brookcove

Ted tells me that hunting, chasing, and killing sheep, or ducks, is essential to his life.  He's bred to crave it - we've taken an instinct essential for life (hunt/kill) and actually increased it and focused it for dogs like him.

He tells me that he wants to come live with you because I am mean and make him control his impulses around livestock.  Around here he just gets nasty old chicken, pork, and dead lamb and goat, and potato and oatmeal, and there's all that live meat out there!  Not only here, but cattle next door, and a donkey, and horses down the road - there's so much potential fun to be had.

It's terrible how I tease them and make these dogs control their drives and only get to work livestock by my rules. 

DPU

you kill then feed the dog the sheep and then try and control the dog by not allowing the dog to eat what was previously ok to eat.  I sure do see an illness coming down the road.

I don't. How many times have dogs been compared to wolves?. Do not wolves have a hierarchy, though flexible at times, when it comes to who gets to eat what and when? And the members of the pack hold their place or take their turn as defined by the social order, rather than all just going in willy nilly after the same haunch. Shadow used to let his friend Duke eat out of his bowl. Shadow was "suppressing" a dog's natural instinct to guard resources and allow his older friend to eat what was initially his. Transfer this to a trained BC who may get to eat some of the sheep as given to him by his owner but would not eat the sheep in the middle of working them in the field. And I don't think the dog necessarily sees it as a dichotomy of, "Oh I get to chase the sheep but not eat them, yet here is human giving me sheep carcass (which does smell different than live sheep)". That sounds like an abstract thought train worthy of a human.

Thanks Ron.  There have been many notes and studies by animal behaviorists who believe that the herding behavior set is related to the structured hunting behaviors of pack hunters.  Most notable of course is the work of the Coppingers, which has become required reading in animal behavior literature.  Hunting pack animals have the ability to chase but refrain from the killing, leaving this task to other specialized pack members, and further deferring from eating until pack members with more status have taken their fill - even though this often leaves them with very unsatisfying portions - or nothing at all.

I assure you, DPU, that for hundreds of years, herding dogs have eaten raw meat and bones, and have managed to live their lives working the same livestock they had for breakfast, without incurring mental illness and remaining well adjusted and content their whole lives.  Developing self control CAN be consistent with a healthy, well-adjusted and happy dog. 

I take dogs that other people have decided are ready for euthanasia, because there's no limit to what they will do (including seriously biting people).  Most of the time, all these dogs lack is a positive outlet for their instincts, and being schooled on how to control those instincts. 

Dogs arrive here with no ability to connect to people, no interest in training, out of control and scared.  They leave (assuming they make it) with the ability to process their environment calmly, trust people to make important decisions for them, and absolute sponges for training.

The situation that these dogs face is much more serious than Jack's - no one will ever think of putting him to sleep for being too eager for food!  But if that kind of approach can help dogs through a literal life-or-death situation, I'd be tempted to think it would be both healthy and beneficial to try this with a dog that is similarly overfocused on something besides me.

Speaking of which, to get back to Jack's situation - think of it this way.  You want to be The Most Interesting Person On Earth.  That will start out because little low-cal, low value treats come from you fairly often.  But soon he will start following you around and thinking about what you do - at first to try to guess whether it will involve treats - but the key is that you want himm thinking!  Your problem is that when it's all about the food, his brains fall out his ears, poor guy.  I know, my little BC Jen was like that about toys, as I mentioned.

If he seriously will eat anything, you can use celery or bits of lettuce leaf, or other almost zero cal veggies, to train.  Zhi will do anything for cauliflower bits, it's awesome.  Then you can use food as much as you like, he'll feel like he's getting somewhere, and as I said you will start becoming more the object of interest than the food per se.

Good luck!

 

I don't have any experience with wolves and I am not sure of its relevance to the domestic dog living in a human environment.  But from the comments offerred, I can glean that a successful or well balanced canine is one that is wholly integrated in a pack.  The dog's basic survival needs are satisfied and the individual dog is free to work on the higher level needs of social bonding, integration, belongingness, and working together.  The transition from individual wants give way to the success of the group by the tightening of the bond.  The order that is established elevates the social needs over the basic survival needs such as feeding.  The dog learns that by being part of this integrated group, the effort to meet the basic survival needs is less so preservation of the order of the group is paramount.  Maybe this is why I don't get things like countersurfing, nipping at the human hands, jumping, begging for food, etc...the individual wants have been satisfied and the belongingness keep the dogs together so individual dog don't wander off on its own.  This then frees the dog to focus and work out its own individual issues with of course my help since the issues were man made to start with.

Rwbeagles stated in another thread that my residence dogs and fosters "run together".  I can't stress enough my sucesses with setting up such an enviroment.  My latest foster is another example of how unwanted behavior arises when a dog is mishandled and an order is not established.  When operating from social needs, a dog has so many choices (motivators) other than food to help teach the dog good human manners....toys, tug-o-war, affection, wrestling, general play, etc. I will never understand why anyone would reach way low and try and tap into the dog's basic survival needs to "make the dog" perform a human command.  So unnecessary and so contrary to an order.

ron2

That sounds like an abstract thought train worthy of a human.

You don't think dogs are cable of thinking in the abstract or project.  I don't know for sure but what about play and it representing practice to carryover for real life survival situations.  What about chewing an object?  Most think chewing is done because of boredom but it could be an exercise to strenthen the jaw muscles, again in preparation to real life survival situations. 

Only the OP knows her dog and the home environment that is setup.  I think these matters should be consider and its ok to dismiss.

Answer this simple question.  The dog's food is sitting in an open bag in the corner of the kitchen.  There is food on the countertop.  Why don't my new fosters go for the food when there is plenty plenty of opportunities to get it.  Could it be that I have attached something to their meal time that makes the food much more enjoyable and that combination is all that satisfies the want, and not the food itself.

DPU

You don't think dogs are cable of thinking in the abstract or project

Au contraire. I think dogs do have cognitive process and some level of abstract thought, which placed me in direct opposition to LCK on that question. But I would add the qualifier that I don't assume at all levels that dogs have the same level or type of abstract thought that we do, even though there is documented evidence to support that. Namely, the Doberman rescue that would arrange his toys in geometric shapes, and then re-arrange them in social patterns and behaviors befitting that of a human, including symbols of affection and social bonding. A dog behaviorist was brought in and even she could hardly believe what she saw and would have doubted the story in its entirety if she had not seen it herself.

Shadow's food bag is the large 40 pounder. Sitting on the floor, next to the fridge, with only a big "chip clip" to hold the top closed. With one tug, he could open that bag and dive in. And doesn't. I think that's mostly due to his temperment and metabolism. Sibes regulate their own intake. It could also be due to training because I have always have the mother lode treats as well as providing the food for regular meals. He has not been trained to get into the food bag and since such a behavior is not requested, it is not likely to happen. The behaviors that do get reinforced are more likely to happen.

So, I take you are suggesting that eating and social behavior are two levels of interaction and that social behavior is higher than eating though one might also contend that social behavior ensures the ability to eat, hence canids packing together for a more successful hunt. I am not totally dissuaded from the notion that organization is from the ground up and that a sum of parts can achieve what one part could not, therefore creating almost another intelligent force of synchronicity for a purpose.

 Admin speaking...

Being as this thread was started to request practical advice for an occurring problem, I think the abstract debates are best kept elsewhere.  Please limit responses *here* to how to help Jack.