The war between "positive" and "correctional"

I think in another thread I said I have changed a dog's way of greeting when the dog would jump on people.  So simple to do and it did not require any training like reward or correction training (like ignoring, so silly). 

Ron2's example was not defined as a greeting but as a play session.  Much like me participating in a football or soccer game with a group of guys.  I'm not going to say to the other players "It's nice to meet you, can I have the ball so I can score a touchdown".  No we are going to play and get rough. 

Dogs most certainly do learn behavior within context.  How else could meal time be more enjoyable than the food presented?  How else can a dog learn to greet properly....certain things have to be in place for the dog to offer the good manners.  Dogs are very aware of human body language and it would be in your interest to learn and for safety reasons, how an individual dog interprets the slightest human gesture.

Dogs most certainly do learn behavior within context

Of course.  But they can also learn outside of context, thank God.  Otherwise it would be impossible to teach many working behaviors. 

Ted is going through the part of his herding training where he has to go left or right regardless of what his instincts are telling him to do.  He had to learn that first, before I could show him the "why" - which he put into practice for the first time today and will really start using this Sunday at our trainer.  The "why" is that sometimes by putting him here rather than there (where he would be if he just followed instinct), I can make things easier for him.  Today the ducks kept trying to fool him by splitting around the swingset, but if he followed my commands to go left out wide, instead of following straight down the middle, he could outflank them and keep them together.

As for corrections, you know what I'm finding is one of the best "corrections"?  Simply what I call "reset to zero."  There must be a technical term for it (perhaps someone can supply that, and maybe some reading material).  I stop the action, physically ask the dog to go back where the refusal happened, and ask for the behavior again.  Ted hates to do something over again and will usually work out some way to avoid having this happen a second time.  If I remember to do this consistently, I never have to even raise my voice anymore.  You can see on my videos that this would be an improvement. 

This assumes the dog knows the behavior, and is capable of performing it where/under the circumstances I asked for it.  If I get another refusal I'll assume the dog's not ready for that and try simplifying what I'm asking.  I got a chance to put this into action last weekend when working with a new dog (aggressive towards livestock and other dogs).  She was very confused and not physically well as it turned out, so I'm very, very glad I used such a low key approach with her. 

This is not to brag!  I feel very strongly that if I can do this anyone can!  I used to be such a screamer, many years ago.  I'll never forget one time I ran at a trial and as I was leaving, someone complimented me that I had hardly "shrieked" at all the whole time.    I had a new training goal right then.

I too was slammed many years ago by my 75 lb Lab in her innocent excitement.  My knee was seriously injured.  If I had been able I probably would have tried to punish her.  But it would have done no good at all in this case.  Punishment, by my definition, always occurs AFTER the fact.  It doesn't work on humans if the recidivism rates in our prisons is any indication.  The behavior itself was the reward.  As another person has said a correction can only work if it occurs at the EXACT right moment.  This is not easy, even professional trainers don't always correct or reward with perfect timing.  Prong collars can be effective on some dogs because the correction is coming at the exact time the unwanted action is taking place.  But even prong collars don't work on all dogs.  My dog Rex is very soft and he hates and fears any sort of drama and heaven help you if you  yell at him.  He is going to shut down.  My dog Belle is tough as nails and the prong collar had no real effect on her.  When I saw that, I quit using it.  Two totally different dogs but they both need the same type of training.  Rex is easier because he just wants to figure out what I want and then it's a done deal.  Belle wants to see how much I really want her to do something.  In her case I have to be giddy with happiness for the slightest step in the right direction.

I used to be an alpha roller too, but my Jack Russell cured me!  LOL

 I like Becca's method. Although I did punish my puppy quite harshly a couple of weeks ago when I forgot to put him inside before going into the hare's enclosure. It was my fault for failing to manage, but I'm not about to put my rabbits at risk because I let my puppy discover how fun chasing rabbits was and was too unsure of myself and our relationship to punish him and make sure chasing rabbits was not as fun as he thought it would be. I didn't hurt him (although, Penny bit him), but when me and Penny were done with him he bloody knew chasing rabbits was not a very smart idea. He hasn't done it since, although I have tightened up my management measures and he doesn't get much of a chance to chase. I wouldn't have bothered if he'd been a dog with a stronger prey drive, and I wouldn't have gone there a couple of months ago when we were still getting to know one another. I accidentally punished him back then by shouting and hustling him outside when I caught him peeing in the kitchen. He wouldn't come inside no matter how I coaxed for the rest of the evening. Since then I've been very careful about what I do around him when. But we're all confident enough now that he can handle a few moments of scary human for the sake of my rabbits' safety. I've been making too many deposits since he came to live with us for a deduction once in a blue moon to make much of a dent in our relationship piggy bank.

I don't think there is a war, for what it's worth. Most people out there fall somewhere in the middle and are just trying to find something that works for them. I don't think much of corrections, but so many people call so many different things corrections that there doesn't seem much point arguing about it. If I'm going to do something that my dog doesn't like, I call it a punishment. If I do something the dog neither likes nor dislikes, I call it communication. If I do something the dog likes, I call it positive. I don't define punishmens and positive rewards and neither; the dog does.  

corvus

Although I did punish my puppy quite harshly a couple of weeks ago when I forgot to put him inside before going into the hare's enclosure. It was my fault for failing to manage, but I'm not about to put my rabbits at risk

So, you punished the dog because of your own admitted mistake. Punishing the innocent for the sins of the guilty.

corvus

I don't define punishmens and positive rewards and neither; the dog does

Yes, the dog does. Or, maybe I have the syntax of the sentence confused due to odd punctuation.

But I agree, people mean different things with the same word. What a human thinks is a correction or punishment might not mean that to a dog. Such as my example. We can't always means the same thing to each other and we speak the same language.

ron2

So, you punished the dog because of your own admitted mistake. Punishing the innocent for the sins of the guilty.

Correction are often - many times - the result of a failure on the part of the human.  Had the situation been managed and the dog been trained adequately prior to that moment, the correction could have been avoided. 

DPU

as a greeting but as a play session.  Much like me participating in a football or soccer game with a group of guys.  I'm not going to say to the other players "It's nice to meet you, can I have the ball so I can score a touchdown".  No we are going to play and get rough

Could it be the same for some dogs? That is, are we imposing a human idea of separation of greet and play on a dog, when the dog may not see it that way, at all?

But I fear we'll drift further away from the topic.

But, it seems, to delineate the difference between the two camps does require some discussion of concepts upon which we differ. And it seems, that much of our "war" is based on differing semantics, different human psychologies. I've irked one or two people when they thought they did something punishing and I saw it as more of an environmental punishment that really did depend on the dog feeling it was a punishment or that the dog had a different neurology and that what was accomplished was similar to how a "positive" training person would do it. That is, the scientific discussion got lost in someone's feelings getting hurt because they were compared to the "other side" or that they aren't as powerful or "alpha" as they thought they were, i.e., politics.

But I'm not exactly sure how a human asks to be jumped on in a greeting. Maybe I msinuderstood the part about human body language.

ron2

But, it seems, to delineate the difference between the two camps does require some discussion of concepts upon which we differ. And it seems, that much of our "war" is based on differing semantics, different human psychologies. I've irked one or two people when they thought they did something punishing and I saw it as more of an environmental punishment that really did depend on the dog feeling it was a punishment or that the dog had a different neurology and that what was accomplished was similar to how a "positive" training person would do it. That is, the scientific discussion got lost in someone's feelings getting hurt because they were compared to the "other side" or that they aren't as powerful or "alpha" as they thought they were, i.e., politics.

The way that I see it there are 3 camps, 'traditional' that uses physical and hands on corrections, the 'positive' that uses the conflicts of rewards and withholding as the means to teach behavior.  The 3rd is fullfilling the dog's needs, responding to the want, and noting the resulting behavior to determine the urgency of the want and the need that is not satisfied.  A lot of the 'traditional' characteristics carried over to the 'positive' way but unfortunately those that practice are in deniel.  The simple phrase of "without an opposing wind, a kite can not fly" is most applicable to the 'positive' way. 

At the risk of going off topic -

DPU, I think a lot of people here would really love to be in the "3rd camp" and able to "teach" the way you do.... just bond with the dog, satisfy his needs starting with the lowest level and working up.  But I think you might under estimate the "work" your pack does to teach each newcomer.  Most people here don't have the space for half a dozen dogs to train each new dog, or puppy.  Therefore "your" method is not relevant for a lot of people here, as much as it might work great for you.  Plus, I don't recall you raising a puppy - which is a different kettle of fish entirely. 

Chuffy

At the risk of going off topic -

DPU, I think a lot of people here would really love to be in the "3rd camp" and able to "teach" the way you do.... just bond with the dog, satisfy his needs starting with the lowest level and working up.  But I think you might under estimate the "work" your pack does to teach each newcomer.  Most people here don't have the space for half a dozen dogs to train each new dog, or puppy.  Therefore "your" method is not relevant for a lot of people here, as much as it might work great for you.  Plus, I don't recall you raising a puppy - which is a different kettle of fish entirely. 

Hi Chuffy, you need to pay more attention to the member's household and the number of dogs they are caring for.  So your statement of "a lot of people here" is very questionable.  I think a lot of our problem post is when they are first bringing in a new dog into their own.  I bring in a new one probably every 3 months so I have lots of experience.  I see that most of the advise given to these people is start training aggressively, teaching the household rules, and doing "make the dog" procedures,  My 3rd way is to allow the dog an acclimation time span that includes not only learning from the other dogs but a big part of it, is learning my behavior, my schedule, and my habits.  I have learned that the elimination, avoidance, or minimizing stress in the introduction period does not give rise to many behavior problems experienced by other members.  I keep reading time after time when stress is placed on the dog, behavior problems happen.

I think that to truly understand why I am moving into this 3rd way, you have to foster and continually bring in new dogs and have the dogs live with you for a while.  All the advise given is usually based on memory of an old experience and there may be indulgence.  So, I am not sure why you say my experience and my opinions are irrelevant unless you are trying to advocate only one certain way, your way.

In reference to your "puppy" comment, are you saying I should breed the fosters before they are spay/neutered so I have puppy experience.  You must know by now that I am dedicated to rescue, rehab, and rehome the dog's that are difficult to place.  Puppies are easy to place and don't need my help.  In my posting, I usually don't comment on puppy issues, but I read them. 

DPU

Hi Chuffy, you need to pay more attention to the member's household and the number of dogs they are caring for.  So your statement of "a lot of people here" is very questionable.  I think a lot of our problem post is when they are first bringing in a new dog into their own.  I bring in a new one probably every 3 months so I have lots of experience.  I see that most of the advise given to these people is start training aggressively, teaching the household rules, and doing "make the dog" procedures,  My 3rd way is to allow the dog an acclimation time span that includes not only learning from the other dogs but a big part of it, is learning my behavior, my schedule, and my habits.  I have learned that the elimination, avoidance, or minimizing stress in the introduction period does not give rise to many behavior problems experienced by other members.  I keep reading time after time when stress is placed on the dog, behavior problems happen.

I don't believe the statement about "a lot of people here" is questionable - we will have to agree to disagree.

Also, I think a large number of the posts for help are from owners who HAVEN'T done training from day one... and thus bad habits have developed and now they want help to stop those habits.

DPU

I keep reading time after time when stress is placed on the dog, behavior problems happen.

Could you be specific - what stress are you talking about?  The stress of "aggressively training"?  When, specifically, has training the dog caused problems?  And who here uses "aggressive training" to reach their goal?

DPU

So, I am not sure why you say my experience and my opinions are irrelevant unless you are trying to advocate only one certain way, your way.

To clarify...  *I* don't think your opinions and experience are irrelevant.  I certainly find them thought provoking and I'm sure plenty of people have gleaned ideas from your description of how you do things.  That said, MUCH of what you do.... consists of allowing six or seven dogs to teach one dog.  For a lot of people here, that is not an option.  It is rare for you to explain the specifics of how you teach X Y and Z, so it may well be that I am missing something.

Chuffy

ron2

So, you punished the dog because of your own admitted mistake. Punishing the innocent for the sins of the guilty.

 

Correction are often - many times - the result of a failure on the part of the human.  Had the situation been managed and the dog been trained adequately prior to that moment, the correction could have been avoided. 

I sure did. I made a split-second decision based on what I perceived to be the quickest and safest way out of the mess. Not just for the dog, but for my hare, who is a lot less forgiving than a dog. Temple Grandin says the worst thing you can do to an animal is make it feel afriad. I wholeheartedly agree with this. So when it came to make a decision on whether Kivi Tarro should be afraid for 10 seconds or my hare should be afraid for as long as it took me to retrain Kivi without fear, I chose cracking down on Kivi. I don't feel very great about putting myself somewhere I had to make that choice, but I do feel good about how I overcame my own aversion to punishment to make the best of a bad situation. So take your judgemental attitude elsewhere. I'm not perfect but no one is and I won't apologise for failing to be perfect. Nor will I apologise for protecting my hare first, who needs it a lot more than my puppy does. Get back to me when you make a stupid mistake that could see Shadow ruin Jade's life, Ron, and we'll see what you picked and what the fallout was. There is a time and place for punishment. It's when you mess up and need to fix it very fast.

corvus

I sure did. I made a split-second decision based on what I perceived to be the quickest and safest way out of the mess. Not just for the dog, but for my hare, who is a lot less forgiving than a dog. Temple Grandin says the worst thing you can do to an animal is make it feel afriad. I wholeheartedly agree with this. So when it came to make a decision on whether Kivi Tarro should be afraid for 10 seconds or my hare should be afraid for as long as it took me to retrain Kivi without fear, I chose cracking down on Kivi. I don't feel very great about putting myself somewhere I had to make that choice, but I do feel good about how I overcame my own aversion to punishment to make the best of a bad situation. So take your judgemental attitude elsewhere. I'm not perfect but no one is and I won't apologise for failing to be perfect. There is a time and place for punishment. It's when you mess up and need to fix it very fast.

  I wonder what it's like to be a perfect parent and perfect pet owner who always manages the environment and those creatures in it and never has an event occur that requires a quick and unpleasant response, such as babies putting tongues in plugs (after prying safety plugs loose) or toddling towards a boiling pot.  Must be nice in Perfect Land.  But I'll take the real world anyday. 

BCMixs

I wonder what it's like to be a perfect parent and perfect pet owner who always manages the environment and those creatures in it and never has an event occur that requires a quick and unpleasant response, such as babies putting tongues in plugs (after prying safety plugs loose) or toddling towards a boiling pot.  Must be nice in Perfect Land.  But I'll take the real world anyday.

When I was 3 years old, I stuck a bobby pin in an outlet. I can still remember the smell of my own burning flesh and I wonder if it predestined me for my current occupation.

Later on, I moved to Perfectland, Texas.

Give me all the heat you think you can give. I admit when I am wrong, I admit that I am not perfect and I do stand up and face the judgement of my sins. And because of my sins, I am going to that hot place down below. I do not allow the Innocent to pay my debts. It is because of my fumbling that Shadow has been limited in some things. The only easy day was yesterday.