The war between "positive" and "correctional"

 Great, you like to use positive punishment.  Some people here don't.  So?  Whose buying the next round?
 

Talking about "balanced" trainers drives me nuts. There are very sound reasons why many people avoid owner-delivered +P like the plague. Not because they are soft-hearted wimps, not because they think it's cruel, but because it a) doesn't work as well as other methods, and b) has unavoidable side effects.

Everyone agrees that dogs don't speak english, so unlike say with your child you can't explain to the dog why exactly you are punishing the dog.

When you're training the dog really has no idea what, exactly, he did that caused the consequences unless he experiments. Let's say you are training your dog to not jump up on people in greeting. So you use -P (getting the greetee to turn her back and ignore the dog) when the dog jumps and when all four of the dog's feet are on the ground you say "good" and reward with petting/attention. At first dog has no clue- is he getting +R for wagging his tail, for being in a particular place in the kitchen, for gazing adoringly at his greetee? he has to experiment, try over and over until he figures it out. He's willing to do so- it's not fun to be ignored, but clearly there is a way to get the reward of attention!

So you decide that since you never want the dog to jump up on people you might as well  just use a strong punisher to stop the behavior forever. Makes sense logically. So you put a prong collar on the dog, attach a leash, and invite your big strong buddy to come over you stand on the leash. Dog jumps up, gets a good strong correction with the prong collar while your buddy knees the dog in the chest. The dog has no clue what exactly he did that caused the discomfort. He will never know what he did that caused the discomfort without experimenting. Was it approaching a man with a beard that caused the punishment? was it being in particular place in the kitchen? was it wagging the tail or gazing adoringly at the greetee? only way to find out is to experiment- except the dog isn't very willing to risk it. You repeat your correction for jumping several times and who knows what the dog has actually learned to stop-doing? clearly it includes not-jumping but since the dog didn't try hard to isolate what exactly was wanted you've almost certainly taught the dog to stop-doing any number of other behaviors when greeting people.

And of course there's always the possibility of a serious reaction like deciding strangers are scary cause they come associated with discomfort..

 The scenario you describe is exactly how I taught my airedale not to jump on people, minus the knee to the chest.  We stood on the leash with a regular collar, but the negative response for trying to jump (tug on the collar, not able to physically complete the jump, and the child moves away and ignores) was always followed by a positive interaction, the child would approach again and when all 4 stayed on the floor, he got lots of loving and a ball thrown to chase.  No one can know what exactly the dog reasoned out, was it try to jump, people keep interacting with me, then I get good stuff, or hey if I don't jump I get good stuff, but I know what worked to end the behavior. 

Indie decided one day when he was feeling better and gaining weight to do a full body, full weight from behind tackle and knocked me flat.  In less than the required (arbitrarily decided by humans, btw) 3 seconds, he was alpha rolled and yelled at harshly.  That was followed by calling him over to a different part of the yard and playing appropriately and praising and loving him for playing appropriately.  He's never tried that move again in the time I've had him, nor has he tried it on anyone else (like at the dog park, which would be a disaster). That's not a move I could have ignored into extinction, I would have ended up seriously injured myself and he would have injured others if it had continued.

I think harsh responses have their place and I'm not hesitant about using them for serious infractions.  However, I believe they are best followed by a positive experience immediately following the harsh punisher so you don't harm the relationship between you and your dog. 

YMMV, of course. 

BCMixs

In less than the required (arbitrarily decided by humans, btw) 3 seconds, he was alpha rolled and yelled at harshly. 

Good grief.  Got your flame retardent suit handy I hope?

And I don't know what YMMV means. 

Pfft, I've been flamed so many time for admitting to using alpha rolls and harsh punishments for harsh infractions, my skin is Teflon!  I have a bad back and a bad knee.  The force with which he took me out could have easily earned me surgery, so yeah, I body slammed him, no sugar coating.  When he turns and rips my throat out, you can cluck your tongue and say  "See? She had it coming."  In the meantime, I'll keep training my soon-to-be therapy dog cuddle bug who lights up when we work together (positively) and shows no fear of me whatsoever.  Would I try it with a dog that wasn't mine, who I hadn't spent time with, or who had an aggressive streak?  Hell no.  An oversized puppy who has no idea of his body size or its potential to harm?  Yep.  My dog. My methods.

YMMV is Your Mileage May Vary. 

Chuffy

BCMixs

In less than the required (arbitrarily decided by humans, btw) 3 seconds, he was alpha rolled and yelled at harshly. 

 

Good grief.  Got your flame retardent suit handy I hope?

And I don't know what YMMV means. 

Don't.
 

BCMixs

Pfft, I've been flamed so many time for admitting to using alpha rolls and harsh punishments for harsh infractions, my skin is Teflon!  I have a bad back and a bad knee.  The force with which he took me out could have easily earned me surgery, so yeah, I body slammed him, no sugar coating.  When he turns and rips my throat out, you can cluck your tongue and say  "See? She had it coming."  In the meantime, I'll keep training my soon-to-be therapy dog cuddle bug who lights up when we work together (positively) and shows no fear of me whatsoever.  Would I try it with a dog that wasn't mine, who I hadn't spent time with, or who had an aggressive streak?  Hell no.  An oversized puppy who has no idea of his body size or its potential to harm?  Yep.  My dog. My methods.

YMMV is Your Mileage May Vary. 

It's cruel and I won't condone it.  If it works, you didn't need it.... if you DO need it, it won't work.  THE most useless, over-used, mis-used, misunderstood practise in dog owning history.  Frankly I'd rather have CM handle a dog than have the dog subject to that ^ ^ ^ practise.  CM is always controlled, calm, authoritive, doesn't yell.

THIS is where the pre-emptive training talked about on the other thread (I Don't Understand Why....) is so important. 

Lurkers - brookcoves advice is excellent.  Please take it.

brookcove

Well, just as I said in reference to the earlier thread with "tessa"  - those of you out there in lurkland who think that sounds like a terrific, effective method to stop a behavior.  I have one word of advice.

Don't.
 

When have I EVER encouraged alpha rolling? I have not and DO NOT be accusing me of such absurd things. **content removed**

Chuffy

BCMixs

Pfft, I've been flamed so many time for admitting to using alpha rolls and harsh punishments for harsh infractions, my skin is Teflon!  I have a bad back and a bad knee.  The force with which he took me out could have easily earned me surgery, so yeah, I body slammed him, no sugar coating.  When he turns and rips my throat out, you can cluck your tongue and say  "See? She had it coming."  In the meantime, I'll keep training my soon-to-be therapy dog cuddle bug who lights up when we work together (positively) and shows no fear of me whatsoever.  Would I try it with a dog that wasn't mine, who I hadn't spent time with, or who had an aggressive streak?  Hell no.  An oversized puppy who has no idea of his body size or its potential to harm?  Yep.  My dog. My methods.

YMMV is Your Mileage May Vary. 

 

It's cruel and I won't condone it.  If it works, you didn't need it.... if you DO need it, it won't work.  THE most useless, over-used, mis-used, misunderstood practise in dog owning history.  Frankly I'd rather have CM handle a dog than have the dog subject to that ^ ^ ^ practise.  CM is always controlled, calm, authoritive, doesn't yell.

THIS is where the pre-emptive training talked about on the other thread (I Don't Understand Why....) is so important. 

Lurkers - brookcoves advice is excellent.  Please take it.

I'm happy to add my agreement here that this cruel and unusual punishment does not belong in any trainer's arsenal, whether you use corrections or not.  All it proves to your dog is that you are unpleasant and unpredictable.  The fallout from coercive training is well documented, but again, for the lurkers, there are some dogs that will not decide to capitulate.  Instead, they will arrive at maturity and decide to take you out.  The headlines usually read "attacked without provocation".  YMMV
 

 I have heard that some old time dog trainers used the alpha roll with great success.  When the dog capitulated, this was counted as proof of the success of this approach.  When the dog retaliated (but so many won't), they were shot.  100% success rate guaranteed.

Here's a funny thing.  I do a lot of study of different lines and the history of my breed.  You'd think the lines that go back to trainers like the above would be the ones with the really great temperaments.  But the superior temperaments come from the trainers who are known to this day for their quiet handling and gentle, fair training methods.  Templeton, Dalziel, Henderson, HG Jones, Aled Owen.  Why is that do you think?

brookcove

Why is that do you think?

Oh! Oh! Oh! I know why! I know why!

It is easier to reinforce what you want than to stop what you don't. Any force encounters resistance. And mudpuppy explained it perfectly. Not that I'm against using corrections if necessary but the timing is approximately the same and dogs can think quicker than 3 seconds. But you don't always know what you are stopping and sometimes, the dog doesn't know, either. Of course, their are some dogs that might understand a correction or punishment and never do that move again with anything or anyone but that requires, imo, a level and type of abstraction that not all dogs will have. If the dog stops anything, it will be the last thing he did before the correction, even if that move was recalling or looking at you. He might decide not to do the recall or look again since he got punished for it, in his mind. If he thinks the punishment is a punishment.

Case in point. I used to scruff and pin Shadow, primarily for jumping on people. And it didn't work. Later, I figured out why. His first owners used to wrestle with him for play. So, to him, that physical manhandling was like play, which is usually a reinforcer. So, it didn't matter how in control or punishing I thought it was, he didn't think so. How did I stop the jumping? By training "off" which was trained with reinforcement. And by putting jump on cue. If it's not asked for, it is less likely to be offered. A dog, like any creature, avoids punishment and seeks reward. That's a plain and simple fact regardless of what style of training we use. You get what you reinforce.

ron2

brookcove

Why is that do you think?

 

Oh! Oh! Oh! I know why! I know why!

It is easier to reinforce what you want than to stop what you don't. Any force encounters resistance. And mudpuppy explained it perfectly. Not that I'm against using corrections if necessary but the timing is approximately the same and dogs can think quicker than 3 seconds. But you don't always know what you are stopping and sometimes, the dog doesn't know, either. Of course, their are some dogs that might understand a correction or punishment and never do that move again with anything or anyone but that requires, imo, a level and type of abstraction that not all dogs will have. If the dog stops anything, it will be the last thing he did before the correction, even if that move was recalling or looking at you. He might decide not to do the recall or look again since he got punished for it, in his mind. If he thinks the punishment is a punishment.

Case in point. I used to scruff and pin Shadow, primarily for jumping on people. And it didn't work. Later, I figured out why. His first owners used to wrestle with him for play. So, to him, that physical manhandling was like play, which is usually a reinforcer. So, it didn't matter how in control or punishing I thought it was, he didn't think so. How did I stop the jumping? By training "off" which was trained with reinforcement. And by putting jump on cue. If it's not asked for, it is less likely to be offered. A dog, like any creature, avoids punishment and seeks reward. That's a plain and simple fact regardless of what style of training we use. You get what you reinforce.

I have to agree with Ron, and I don't think I've ever seen a correction, or "punishment" of any kind, work ever with either of my dogs.  They just do whatever it is that gets them what they want.

ron2

His first owners used to wrestle with him for play. So, to him, that physical manhandling was like play, which is usually a reinforcer. So, it didn't matter how in control or punishing I thought it was, he didn't think so. How did I stop the jumping? By training "off" which was trained with reinforcement. And by putting jump on cue. If it's not asked for, it is less likely to be offered. A dog, like any creature, avoids punishment and seeks reward. That's a plain and simple fact regardless of what style of training we use. You get what you reinforce.

This is a good example where no training was necessary, correctional or the so called positive way.  The dog has an inner social need and expressed the want by the behavior of jumping on people.  Satsify the need and redefine the want by creating association like play in one certain area, the clothes you are wearing, voice tone, body gestures, etc.  I just don't see how working backwards by training the behavior ever connects to the original need.  The only message the owner is telling the dog is there will be no play. 

DPU

This is a good example where no training was necessary, correctional or the so called positive way

Yes, he had the social need or desire but training was necessary to guide him to an acceptable expression.

DW and I have just the right personalities that guests sometimes visit, sometimes from 50 miles away. Perhaps I should give you some basics to help build your understanding. Yes, dogs do jump as a greeting. Shadow is 26 inches tall at the shoulder and weighs 65 lbs. Standing on his hind legs he can put his paws on DW's shoulders. DW is 5' 5 1/2". The reason for training to control the jump is so that he doesn't knock people down. Especially, say our goddaughter. With a running start, he could knock me down. Some guests wear nice clothes and don't want paw prints on their freshly dry cleaned clolthes. Dry cleaning is where you take your clothes to a place to have them cleaned and it costs money, more for women's clothes than men's clothes (I don't know why that it is. It could be sexism, which I will define at a later date.)

In the world I have been in, dogs can have unique appetites. There are dogs that will clean their food bowl and take more if you have. Others, such as my dog will eat a certain amount. And still want treats or scraps in addition to what they've already had, whether eating those scraps and treats is working a basic need or not. So, if affection is higher, then it is not a basic need. It might be a secondary or tertiary need. That means second or third order.

DPU

The only message the owner is telling the dog is there will be no play. 

I disagree. I'm showing my dog that this way is the preferred and rewarding way to greet and play. As far as I can tell, the training methods of others with way more education and experience than I have show that my method is right, that my understanding of the process is right.

But I did have a thought. When the dog is greeting by jumping, a seeking of return affection, is that a basic need or not? If it is a basic need, what makes manipulating it more respectable than another basic need, hypothetically. My dog has his basic needs met. I have always done it backwards. Shadow would eat until he didn't want anymore. Then, maybe an hour or so later, he would often cue me for training. So, I've never used his meal as part of training.

He did have an eating problem to begin with when I first got him but my experience was crapped on and treated as negligible, even though I did resolve the issue before I really started treat training.

If a child thinks that greeting involves running up to daddy and jumping into his arms, then hugging, regardless of what's on his sticky little fingers, does that mean that he should greet an unfamiliar adult that way?  Of course not, so children are taught that a polite greeting involves saying "It's nice to meet you" and maybe extending the hand for a handshake.  Dogs are not incapable of learning contextually, or learning that other species or individuals require different greetings.  And, it's not awful to tell either a child or a dog that there will be no play right now.  You can always extend the invitation later...