Abbie abbie abbie

 Oh, Jeez.  Welcome to the Aussie rules of possession.  These are dogs that think a bit differently.

1. If I like it, it's mine.
2. If I saw it first, it's mine.
3. If it's in my mouth, it's mine.
4. If I can take it from you, it's mine.
5. If I had it a little while ago, it's mine.
6. If it's mine, it must never appear to be yours in any way.
7. If I'm chewing something up, all the pieces are mine.
8. If it looks like mine, it's mine.
9. If you're playing with something and you put it down, it automatically becomes mine.
10. If it's broken, it's yours.

In this case, it seems you are the resource.  Time outs don't work well with Aussies, in my experience.  You are better off, by far, simply teaching them to "herd" appropriately.  In other words, if you can teach them to stop, down, walk up, leave it, come, way to me, go by, etc., as you would with a herding dog, you will have a better "shut off switch".   I find that it pays to think ahead with Aussies, or they'll be one step ahead of you.  The "leave it" or "lie down" comes out of my mouth before the dog gets to the two foot mark, in other words, I'm proactive about controlling my dog, because I know she's apt to guard me (many of these dogs are pretty hard wired to do this - they were herders and farm guardians - closer to working lines you get, the more likely that is).

Jewliee -- we are going through the same thing with foster boy, who moved in and claimed everything. He's gotten a lot better in a short period of time with a really strict NILF protocol, and I view attention as a resource, so he basically gets ignored unless he is super-polite. (I also work with him one-on-one, so it's not like he's always being ignored all the time. He just doesn't get to choose when he gets loved on.) We also feed him last, he gets treats last, he gets pretty much everything last out of the four dogs in the house right now.

If he tries to keep one of my dogs from getting to me, then I body block him out and allow them in. I use this as an "I set the rules for who gets attention, not you."

Spiritdogs -- I love the idea of teaching and using the herding cues in everyday life. I think I will try that!
 

Hmmm, is this an Aussie thing?  lol.  I think Coke might be part Aussie (his mom was white and brown, looked like an Aussie or Aussie mix) and if I so much as mutter more than three words in a row to Kenya, he literally jumps in my lap!  Luckily he has never guarded anything, but affection and attention is definitely something he demands!

 Coke looks part aussie to me.

I am training the dogs on sheep so we are working on all of those commands. I'm hesitant to use them just yet though because they don't have the action with the word down yet. But, your idea is really good. I will do that. I love giving my dogs something to do all the time so giving directional commands could really work.

Anne, I love that list!  It's so true when it comes to Aussies, too.  Bless their hearts, they are just being what they were bred to be - control freaks and busybodies.  If you had a farm, it would be Abbie who would inform you that Timmy had fallen in the well.  And then she would attempt to bite the rescue volunteers who came to save him. 

Sadly, in today's world we freak out quite a bit more about dogs behaving this way.  And Aussies are getting carelessly bred - not paying enough attention to the level of reactivity.  Uncontrollable reactivity ("low threshold";) is simply impossible to manage in a working dog - it makes them dangerous around livestock.  The majority of a stockdog's time is spent patiently waiting and evaluating movement, and only occasionally noting trouble and acting to head it off.

This is the reason Coltrane was placed as a pet instead of into the numerous working homes that were interested in him.  

I think I addressed possessiveness somewhere else, but to reinforce that here:  She needs her job clarified.  It's not to decide what is a threat and what is not, but instead it's to wait by your side and be ready in case you ask her to do something.  In Border Collies, replacement behaviors work really well for this sort of thing (like "Watch me";).  But an Aussie tries to figure out how to do that AND STILL do what it thinks its job is! The second you praise or do anything that seems like a cue to end the behavior, the Aussie will go back to default mode.

You've got to make yourself incredibly interesting.  Herding trainers, of course, are Sheep Goddesses.  That's like the coolest thing ever.

Sidebar: Aussies were originally sheepdogs, by the way.  They later became very strongly focused as cattle specialists but in the great flocks grazing public lands in the previous two centuries, you were far more likely to see a group of Aussies working sheep in the West, than any BCs.

We can trace his early ancestors to sheep herds, many of which were brought from Australia. Basque shepherds on the west coast were known to have "little blue dogs with bob tails" in the late 1800's and early 1900's. Sheep were imported from France, Spain, England, New Zealand, and Australia along with shepherds with dogs. In the western United States the Basque shepherd and his little blue dogs came to represent shepherding as much as the Scotsman and his Collie in Britain. In Australia there are dogs similar to Aussies called German Coolies.

Other breeds have been observed in the above countries exhibiting some of our Aussie's characteristics. Although their exact origin is unknown, there is no doubt that the breed was developed in the western United States by livestock  producers who used the dogs for working. The fact that the dogs also excelled as a cattle dog made them ideal for our many diverse farm and ranch operations. The breed evolved to the demands of their farm and ranch owners.

ASCA - "About Australian Shepherds"  2008 

Anyway, this is where the training comes in.  If you want to herd for real, I wouldn't suggest real herding commands (I'd be happy to tell you why "dry" command practice is a Very Bad Idea if you want), but there's no harm in labeling the behaviors you want, "Closer" "farther" "Right" and "left" or "Peanut butter" and "chocolate chips" or whatever.  And of course distance down and recall can't be practiced enough on or off stock!

The idea is to make yourself so interesting and cool that she will come springing back at a breath of a command from you, and will always be wondering what you want, rather than what she should do about a certain situation.

Trane's not really at his best here but it's pretty funny to compare his attitude towards me with my own supposedly better trained Ted. Notice that he is free to do whatever, but if I ask for him to do something he's right on top of it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2229764446096692556&hl=en 

 ok tell me, why is dry command training a bad idea? I have been doing dry walk ins, lie dows, stand/stays, etc. with Neiko.

With regards to Abbie - I think that I need to take this as a two step approach because of her maturity level - although, she does seem pretty mature mentally for her age. Anyway, I am praising her for approaching dogs nicely. She picked up last night that if she approached and sniffed calmly then she got a treat. If she lunged, growled and snapped at a dog, she was put in a sit/down/stay.

I am working hard on getting a strong leave it (we are half way there as she picks stuff up quickly) and have begun the watch me command. I think that these 2 commands are going to be key with her (they were key with Neiko too when he was younger)

Her mind works very fast and she's really intense. She's really enthusiastic about learning though. For instance, if I tell her to lie down she slams her body on the ground and looks at me eagerly for the next command. She's also already offering behaviors if I wait her out.

I'll see if I can get a good video of her showing some of her behavior - the good and the bad.

She's going to take a lot of continuous work.

Some of the commands we use for herding are relative - ie, relative to the stock and whatever is going on at the moment.  If she learns that "walk up" means come closer to you, then when you are on the sheep, there will be a good bit of confusion when eventually there must be a difference between walk up - come closer, and walk up - put pressure on the sheep to get them to move.  "Walk up" can involve no movement at all on a dog's part.  

Let's say you are at an obstacle and you've got the sheep at a standstill.  You need the sheep to take one step to the right.  You flank him (ask him to move sideways relative to the sheep) so that the heads of the sheep turn towards the right.  Now all you need is to start them moving just a teeny bit.   You ask for a walk up.

If you trained this as a mechanical movement, you'll need to say walkup/LIEDOWN really fast and hope and pray he takes the down before he "Bumps" the sheep too far.

If you trained this so that the dog understood that the point is to move the sheep, you can whisper, "walk up" and the dog will get, "sheep move, but not much."  Most likely the dog will not even move that you can see, but the sheep will take that step.  I saw a dog move sheep by wiggling his eyebrows, once.

The same is true of those circling commands.  I can't tell you the trouble you are asking for if you train them dry.  Come bye does not mean, "circle clockwise".  It means, contain but do not  "bump" the sheep while moving clockwise.

Let's go back to that obstacle.  The sheep are coming, but trying to make a break for it around the side.  You are standing on one side of the obstacle and you ask the dog to "cover" the direction they are trying to break, by asking for that come bye flank.

In scenario one, the dog has been trained to circle mechanically and either a) heads for the fence, allowing the sheep to escape, or b) takes the shortest route and as he slices in, the sheep speed up, until it becomes a free-for-all chase, or c) he does head them as he slices around on the short route, but he circles too far because you misjudged the geometry, and the sheep gallop past you and break around the obstacle on your side.

In scenario two, the dog has been taught that circling also means carefully measuring the flight zone of the sheep and taking that into account with every movement of his.  He cuts out just far enough to turn the heads back 90 degrees to the line that they are supposed to be on, but no more, and waits for your signal to make the other 90 degree adjustment to put them through the obstacle.  It all happens at a walk, because the dog was actively working to keep the sheep quiet.

Most of these commands mean, "Keep the sheep quiet and . . . .______
 

 I see. Thanks. I still have a lot to learn as far as herding goes.