Corrections on a soft dog

My son's young aussie is as you say "soft" too.I find a quick gasp as if to say "what did you do?" is all she needs to take her nose out of the garbage can.After to or three of these over the course of a week she stays out of it,or possibly she is biding her time....such smart dogs these Aussies.

Tena

i used to clap my hands or stomp my foot (which i did first, and then came summer=barefoot or in slippers, so i went on to clapping my hands) when verbal corrections didnt get through anymore.

mostly though i think it isnt about corrections so much as redirection. when they wont stop getting their noses into my stuff i tell them to sit, or go in their crates. it tends to be far more effective, cause it get's their mind off of whatever i am trying to get them out of...

oh, also: i have a "go" command. which means back away from me. usually a few steps is enough. if not i will repeat and they back away a few more steps. it sends a pretty clear message of "you are not to approach this"...

Have you tried setting up an environmental correction?  With the garbage can maybe set up a cookie sheet with a pot lid on top and balance on the edge with a very tempting smell inside the can.  You don't want your dog to see you set this up and you should try and not be in the area when the dog decides to check out that great smell.  The whole idea being that the garbage can scared him, not you.  Any sort of arrangement that you can devise might be a deterrent if it has the proper startle effect.  I have been trying to think of how to set up the dishwasher but can't think of anything.  That's a situation where I would assume you are loading the dishwasher and the dog doesn't have the opportunity unless you are in the kitchen.

I lived with a garbage can raider, counter surfer, food thief for thirteen years and we just finally learned to never leave anything available.  She was the opposite of soft and nothing bothered or scared this girl. LOL.  It's kind of funny how much I miss her even though I cussed her so many times. It's just like housebreaking a puppy or any age dog for that matter.  If an accident happens it's the owner's fault not the dog's.

You can try Scat Mats, I hear they work well for some of your problems.

http://www.mightypets.com/subcat.asp?0=443

JackieG

Have you tried setting up an environmental correction?  With the garbage can maybe set up a cookie sheet with a pot lid on top and balance on the edge with a very tempting smell inside the can.  You don't want your dog to see you set this up and you should try and not be in the area when the dog decides to check out that great smell.  The whole idea being that the garbage can scared him, not you.  Any sort of arrangement that you can devise might be a deterrent if it has the proper startle effect.  I have been trying to think of how to set up the dishwasher but can't think of anything.  That's a situation where I would assume you are loading the dishwasher and the dog doesn't have the opportunity unless you are in the kitchen.

 

I lived with a garbage can raider, counter surfer, food thief for thirteen years and we just finally learned to never leave anything available.  She was the opposite of soft and nothing bothered or scared this girl. LOL.  It's kind of funny how much I miss her even though I cussed her so many times. It's just like housebreaking a puppy or any age dog for that matter.  If an accident happens it's the owner's fault not the dog's.

Excellent suggestion, but I would not go to scat mats - they are electronic, and while they work to keep the dog away from the forbidden, they can also make your dog afraid to ever go in that room again.  Soft dogs don't need harsh correction.  There's a neat little device called an X-mat that is not electronic, but has projections that make it uncomfortable to walk on, so dogs avoid the area.  They are used to naturally avoiding things that are unpleasant to walk on, such as nettles, pebbles, etc., so it causes no undue stress to the dog.  

Corrections issued when you are present do little to tell the dog that you don't want him to touch the object next time, unless the punishment is extremely severe, and I don't know too many people, myself included, that want to terrorize their dogs that much over licking a spoon in the dishwasher.  In any case, if you teach your dog "leave it" and "take it", the dog will know not to lick when you are there and have the door open.

www.clickerlessons.com has instructions on the basics of how to teach "leave it".  Just say "take it" whenever you hand your dog a treat - they get the meaning of that phrase verrrry quickly:-) 

X-mat are available at Amazon.
 

 I have a "no" command.  Actually, it is not so much a command as a direction to tell my dogs not to do something.  It started literally as a direction, since we would be at the juncture of two paths and Selli would take a step down one path and then look at me to see if we were going down that path.  I would either say "yes," to go that way or "no," if we were going a different way.  She did not see it as a correction but as information.  We now use it in other situations, like if she wants to pick up something that I don't want her to pick up.  I simply say "no" in the same tone of voice I would use to say "sit."

Selli is a soft and intelligent dog, who I can't use harsh techniques on, but she has no problem with the idea of a informative "no." 

Getting in to some things - like not licking the dishes in the dish washer while I'm loading it, keeping their noses out of the trash can, etc. Management works, yes, but that's not what I'm after. I want them to ignore these things whether I'm around or not.

why don't you just reward them for an alternative behavior? doggy does a down-stay while you load the dishwasher. A smart dog can learn in one or two sessions that you loading the dishwasher is the dog's cue to assume a DOWN and wait until you're done in order to earn a reward so YOU don't actually have to do anything. Get a nice solid covered trashcan to reduce temptation and praise the dog anytime the dog is near the can and ignoring it.

mudpuppy

why don't you just reward them for an alternative behavior? doggy does a down-stay while you load the dishwasher. A smart dog can learn in one or two sessions that you loading the dishwasher is the dog's cue to assume a DOWN and wait until you're done in order to earn a reward so YOU don't actually have to do anything.

That's a good idea, thanks. Hard to manage with 4 dogs crowded around the dishwasher but I think I can do it.

The trash can thing, I actually manage the trash can stuff (it's behind a baby gate by the back door). I was just using that as an generic example.

You'd be amazed at what dogs can learn, even with other dogs present.  My hound thought he would get away with barking (demand type barking) for his morning cookie today (he's verrrrrrry food motivated).  Instead, what he learned was that each time he barked, Sequoyah got HIS cookie - because she held her down/stay and was silent.  Well, after about five or six reps of that, the wheels started turning in his little hound head, and he flopped into a down!!!  Good boy!  He got his cookie.  Next time, I bet he will shut up and down a whole lot faster...

Do you do herding with any of your dogs?  I can't remember.  If so, how do they do there? 

I clap my hands loudly and give a verbal "hey!"   That's usually enough to send them off to playing with each other rather than getting in my business.  And both of my dogs are stubborn.

 Yes, Lily and Neiko both herd sheep. However, Lily is so soft that even a directional change by me or the trainer gets her worried. So, I don't herd with her too regularly. I am going to try to build up her confidence in other ways before getting serious with her with sheep. She has loads of instinct for it and generally really enjoys herself but she just can't take the pressure right now. I'm enrolling her in rally and make tracking this fall in hopes that will help. I let her herd about every other week just to keep her interest.

Neiko, I'm seriously training on sheep. I'm hoping to compete this fall to at least get our feet wet. He was shutting off for the trainer whenever she gave him pressure or corrections, but he works great for me - even when I get on his case about playing instead of working (if you know what I mean).

I'll train Abbie once she hits about 10 or 11 months old. I have already had her in the ring and she showed a lot of talent for such a young pup.

Okay, that's the information I was looking for.  It's still impossible to know for sure without looking at the dogs in person, but I'm hoping I can give you some thoughts to mull over on this issue.

Herding/working dogs tend to have two main reasons for looking "soft" on corrections. 

One, they are very independent and have a low tolerance for human meddling.  This is very common in Aussies and many breeds that go back to the same stock that Aussies do - catahoulas, ACDs, English shepherds, etc.  These dogs want to know what the job is and then be left to figure out the best way to do it, on their own.  The "fine tuning" you can do with other dogs makes their heads explode.  For these dogs, it's best to set things up so that they think the right way, is their idea.  Also, you can increase their tolerance for meddling by doing it in such a way that they don't get "taken out of the work." 

This is awfully hard to explain, but you can do it with things they like to do, asking for really easy additional behaviors in such a way that it's part of the "job", then things that are a little bit harder, etc.  A dog that likes Frisbee you can ask for a recall when they are looking for the disc and the SECOND the dog responds, throw the disc.  Then make it down.  Then make it come around you, and so on.  Keep it moving and easy, and you can correct ("Ah-ah";) but don't ALSO hide the disc like you'd be tempted to do - that's a double correction.  Avoid those at all cost.  Don't step towards the dog while you correct - also a double correction.

On sheep, you don't block such a dog to force them to change direction, but use the sheep to draw the dog around - step through the sheep at the dog's tail and back up quickly.  The dog must then change direction or crash into the sheep.  If the dog chooses "crash into the sheep" as an option, then you've got something a bit more obvious to correct!  A bit more on making corrections black and white in the next part on "worriers." 

You might be thinking, "What the heck does this have to do with being able to stop my dog from posturing at other dogs?"  This builds a relationship where the dog trusts your correction and actually enjoys it, having long associations with "work."   

Okay, so the other possibility is that you have one or more worriers in your pack.  You can combine a worrier with a task-oriented dog and get a dog that really, really hates interference.  My Ted is a worrier but is a team player, and the team player part is stronger than his worry.  However, if I am not clear in what I'm asking, his tension rises and the worry takes over, and he wavers between giving up and simply taking matters into his own hands (probably the "playing" you mentioned).  Worriers notice everything and their fear comes from the expectation that they are supposed to do something about it.  Worriers are just a step below fear aggression, and a worrier pup can become that quite easily.

How you deal with this type of dog is easy to explain but will take a lot of thought and honest self-evaluation to implement.  Very simply, a worrier needs things to be very clear.  The boundaries need to be clear, what you are asking needs to be extremely straightforward, and it helps to have a point to a task, rather than being training for training's sake.  A correction blows up their world - most of the time it's too much information, at the wrong time. 

It would be as if you were a construction worker and you riveted an entire beam the wrong way right in front of your boss, and then the next piece didn't fit and the boss started yelling at you THEN.  Some people can blow off this kind of correction, maybe even get a laugh out of it ("The boss fell asleep at the wheel there!";).  But some people are thinking the whole time they are working about every detail, maybe even taking some pride in it how well they are doing, and when the boss yells all they can think is, "Where did I go wrong?  Do I suck at this?  Maybe I should quit!"

In the round pen, you'll never ask this kind of dog to circle, circle, circle - rather you'll want to get this dog doing figure eights, taking sheep off the fence, downing/stopping when asked, etc.  This dog may seem very disobedient and keen but then take you by surprise when you open your mouth to correct something they do, and they shut down completely!  This is the dog that wavers between eating sheep for lunch and looking for the exit.

Off of sheep, you can increase the confidence of such a dog by simplifying your requirements at first.  If you don't want your dog to counter surf, ask him to stay with you, in sight, at all times.  Don't leave such a dog loose in the house until they've completely matured (and we're talking years from now, if then).  This works for the task-oriented dog also - "your job is to stay by me."  They understand that easily - it's more difficult, as Anne pointed out, to understand the difference between "okay because I'm not around" and "not okay because I'm around" - that's an extremely mixed message.  You want the message to be: "It's okay because I'm around and I'm not saying anything."  Then they have the confidence to experiment and know the world won't fall apart just because you have something to say about their actions.

I hope this makes sense.