Border Collies on top ten list of aggressive dogs

    • Gold Top Dog

    Border Collies on top ten list of aggressive dogs

    I just read that the Border Collie was rated number nine in the top ten aggressive dogs.  I would like to hear other opinions as to why?  I have three BC's and they are great!!!  They are smart, loving and very loyal!  Trust me, I knkow when anyone is near our "border", they bark like they would tear you head off, but as soon as someone comes in the house, they are all kisses!!  I know if someone tried to hurt me or my DH, they would react, but most dogs would. 

     

    Just curious!

    • Gold Top Dog

    It's probably because of the incidence of BCs herding and nipping children and moving objects.  And that incidence is probably pretty high because they are not warned about this tendency when they get a BC.  In fact, I was just venting on a BC forum that this video from the AKC BC club warns most strongly about the shedding and NOT the herding tendency and high energy requirements.  It also features barbie collie images heavily, but that's another thread...  Ick!  

    http://www.your3ddesign.com/video3.html

    • Gold Top Dog

    I've met a lot of BCs who are dog- and human- aggressive in a sort of "defensive" way- as in, if you/other dog ignore them they are fine but don't approach or try to interact with them. No interest, no tolerance of socializing with random strangers.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Many BC's in my dog park experiences...were very ball guardy or person guardy...and others would be quick to run at running dogs, knock them over which often resulted in a fight or nip. So yes...I do believe it. If the aggression was not specified human or just a "general" aggression it would make a difference, too.

    They also seem to be common...which is kinda odd to me given how unsuitable they are for many of today's more sedentary homes...so numbers also may factor in?

    • Gold Top Dog

     Sierra was attacked (and I mean attacked with intent to injure) by the same border collie 3 times before she was a year old. It was a neighbor's dog, and she was always off leash (some people just don't learn). I can still remember my puppy laying on her back, belly-up, screaming while the dog attacked her in my own front yard.  I'm still dealing with the effects of those attacks today, 5 years later.

    I'm not sure what it was that made her this way... she was also quite people-aggressive. I tried to pet her once but all she wanted was to take my hand off. She has since passed from bone cancer.. and I have to say it's the first time I've ever been relieved to hear of a pet's passing.

     

    I have interacted 2 other pure border collies though, both of which seemed relatively stable. One had some issues with other dogs, but loved people.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Interesting. I have met a lot of BC's through herding, agility, etc and have yet to meet an aggressive one. They are all very friendly and loving.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Jewlieee

    Interesting. I have met a lot of BC's through herding, agility, etc and have yet to meet an aggressive one. They are all very friendly and loving.

     

    That's probably because they're getting what they need, exercise, stimulation, attention and discipline (the good kind that develops self-control).  Poor breeding practices and lack of proper socialization probably contribute to the kinds of dogs others have encountered.  I think any high energy, high drive dog that isn't provided with proper outlets can develop really bad, dangerous habits and anti-social tendencies. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    That's probably because they're getting what they need, exercise, stimulation, attention and discipline (the good kind that develops self-control).  Poor breeding practices and lack of proper socialization probably contribute to the kinds of dogs others have encountered.  I think any high energy, high drive dog that isn't provided with proper outlets can develop really bad, dangerous habits and anti-social tendencies. 

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    Your right, have a lot of friends with BC's and we belong to a Fridsbee club, so all the BC's I am around are exercised regularly and are part of the family and get a lot of attention!!  nOnce again I guess it all comes down to education on the breed you are buying!  I read in a book, tht of all the breeds the BC NEEDS a lot of socialization for the beginning, so they understand everything and everyone around them.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    BCMixs

    Jewlieee

    Interesting. I have met a lot of BC's through herding, agility, etc and have yet to meet an aggressive one. They are all very friendly and loving.

     

    That's probably because they're getting what they need, exercise, stimulation, attention and discipline (the good kind that develops self-control).  Poor breeding practices and lack of proper socialization probably contribute to the kinds of dogs others have encountered.  I think any high energy, high drive dog that isn't provided with proper outlets can develop really bad, dangerous habits and anti-social tendencies. 

     

    That makes a lot of sense!

    I never thought about it, but the border collies that come to our dog park are all a little... off. Too nervous, or guardy of their balls. Obsessive all around. We don't have any bc's come that seem to genuinely like being around other dogs. But these are dogs that aren't out doing dog sports or herding.  

    • Gold Top Dog

     I've been waiting a while for this one.  I've always said I'd rather be around a million halfway decently bred pit bulls (including game bred ones) than one shoddily bred Border Collie.

    Even well bred Border Collies have much potential for disaster.  The Border Collie Boards, the forum for the breed club, (you can google it if you are curious) is filled with cries for help from people with fearful, snappish, aggressive, reactive dogs from every source.  

    A Border Collie has lightning quick reflexes, makes decisions quickly, puts two and two together in ways that boggle the mind, and it's a breed that is meant to act independently to "fix" perceived problems.

    People, on the other hand, have been told for many years that it's wrong to say no to - well, to anything, much less the dog.  The Border Collie is a breed that needs rules, or it will make up its own.  Some of those may include, "No touching me.  No coming within twenty feet.  Men wearing hats are Beelzebub."  The Border Collie is the master of the random association, and without structure the randomness can spread wildly.

    Enforcement of the rules depends on the personality of the dog.  Some dogs just shut down.  Some try to run off.  Some go on strike or play dumb.  And some bite.  Many bite.  And unlike breeds not designed to work closely with dangerous livestock, when a Border Collie aims a bite, it will probably land that bite.  See above about the lightning quick reflexes, etc.

    I've worked with aggressive BCs for years, and their owners.  I've sat there and pointed out the signs of stress and aggression in the dogs to owners and they still don't see them, because they are so subtle.   I can smell a bite coming a mile a way, but it took working with dozens of dogs to get to that point.

    Border Collies are smart and fast, but fortunately they are pretty much all big chickens, too.  Actually, the fact is that 90% of the aggression I've worked with came from the dog not knowing his or her place in life.  Not in a dominance way, but not being part of a team.  Border Collies don't all need 10 hours of agility, flyball, or frisbee, or 15 miles of walks.  In fact most of them don't.  I've seen a dog that was straight out of top working lines and trained to a high level himself, that was happy as a clam as the companion of an 80 year old couple whose idea of exercise was to ride out to the mailbox in the golf cart.  I knew another dog who lived in an apartment and fetched beer from the fridge for his bachelor human housemate.

    The secret was that there was a clear structure and rhythm to these dogs' lives, and they could trust their human companions to make good choices for them.  Those people were the Coolest People on Earth, and they didn't have to worry about things that move, or odd looking things in the environment, or scary noises.  It takes some time, dedication, and a bit of knowhow to get a dog to that point, but once it happens, the payoff is hugely worth it.

    Border Collies are odd creatures.  They are a balance of such extremes.  On the one hand, the dog I see at herding clinics with his 80 year old human friends, levelheaded no matter what's going on, off leash the whole time, yet ready in an instant to work when his trainer (the clinician) calls, a picture of barely contained savagery as he flings himself to and fro at Jack's whistles to work the sheep.  Then he returns again to his owners, content to lay there and gaze with adoration at them - somehow recognizing that they were the ones who gave him that gift.

    On the other hand, the spoiled dogs I get here - out of control, won't look a human in the eye, their eyes roving constantly for anything that will offer some sense to the world, flinging themselves to the end of the leash, growling or snapping when I exchange the collar for one with my information.  The owners both nervous at the thought of giving up their Snookums, yet terrified of Snookums (and Snookums definitely knows it!).

    The first week is Quiet Time.  This dog has returned to the whelping box, and I am its mother and only littermate.  After that he will learn to respect first the leash, as it is an easy and concrete limit to set, and then depending on his personality and what he offers me, he'll learn to be a team player in some way that matches what is easiest for him.

    Many times, by the third week, the second dog I describe more closely resembles the first dog.  Border Collies don't really have an in between where they are jolly and clueless.  That's the weird thing about them.  They are like the Girl with the Curl in the Middle of Her Forehead.  When they are good, they are very, very good, but when they are bad they are awful.  Working trainers and breeders may try to blame Barbie Collie folks, Barbie Collie folks blame the working lines for breeding bad temperaments, and Sport Collie breeders blame both, but really it stems from too many people having these dogs that just don't understand a dog that needs to be needed.

    • Gold Top Dog

    One thing I'll say, once you have handled a BC, they don't forget you! I had handled my instructor's young male and he would always get jealous if he saw or heard me during training. If he was loose, he would come up and jump into my arms. If he saw me at a trial, he would do light barks to get my attention.

    They don't forget I tell you!

     

    • Gold Top Dog
    The only aggressive BC I've seen was a fear biter -- and he was totally fine as long as he didn't feel cornered. When I met him he was gated off in a small room and he snarled at me quite strongly. I left him alone until he was brought out of there by his owner and about 15 minutes later he was curled up with his head in my lap. With some additional exercise, mental stimulation and also with the owners learning to have him come to them instead of reaching for him (he had bitten the owner when she reached into his cage to take off his collar) he was fine.
    • Gold Top Dog

     Hey, Becca, are you sure this isn't an Aussie thread???? Big Smile

    • Gold Top Dog

    Wait, I do know an agressive BC. Its the instructor's other BC. She was trampled or run over by some big dogs when she was a pup and lots of chiropractor work later. She is fear aggressive of most dogs.

    I do know that both her BCs are scared of their terrier though.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Well, add in "bred to be super loyal and protective" and yes, this could double as an Aussie thread.  I've just "graduated" an Aussie/BC who is here for that very reason and so this is quite in the forefront of my thinking.  Trane's a good boy and his only "fault" is that he represents some of the BEST characteristics of his two breeds - but only good in the right context and  in the right hands!