Anticipation and Excitement...

DPU

Thank you, I am not longer concerned.

Yes thank you Leslie. I appreciate you doing that for me

Why are you no longer concerned?? It IS a very real possibility in a dog that drinks huge amounts of water.

DPU

Cassidys Mom

Of course he would! All the affection in the world would do absolutely nothing to teach him that jumping on people is unacceptable behavior. Unaddressed bad behavior allowed to continue does not go away. It only goes away if it stops working to get him what he wants and something else works better.

Sometimes dogs do things just because it's fun, or because nobody bothered to (or perhaps knew how to) teach them that it wasn't okay. Has DPU ever raised a dog from a puppy? They're a total blank slate, knowing only how to be a dog, which means to dig, to chew, to bite, to bark, to eliminate whenever and wherever - we must teach them how to behave in an acceptable manner. Giving in to their every whim is not how to accomplish that, and in fact, will do the exact opposite. 

I suggest you re-read "If a Dog's Prayer Were Answered Bones Would Rain from the Sky", Chapter 10.  My interpretation is the resolve was all about the relationship and the dishing out of affection.  Affection is very effective in modifying a dog's behavior.

I posted a response to this in the NILIF thread, but since you made the same suggestion to read that chapter in this thread also, I'll post a response here too - I reread the chapter, (which is entitled "What I Really Meant to Say Was....", for people who don't have the book handy), and it's not about dishing out affection at all. It's about sending clear and consistent messages to dogs, particularly in circumstances where we're trying to get a dog to stop doing something, but our body language and voice are signaling an invitation to play. No wonder they're confused!

I bolded part of your post, because I agree with it, and so does Suzanne, but not the way you meant it. In this chapter, she instructs an owner to shut down and disengage from her dog if he's behaving badly, and to use attention and praise to reward good behavior. So she's actually advocating removal of attention as a way to train the dog - to show him what works to get him what he wants, and what doesn't.

And then in the next two chapters she talks about leadership in a way that's very pertinent to this discussion.  

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 Admin speaking...

Please stay on topic and remember that this thread is not all about one person or way of doing things.  It is up to all contributing to steer the conversation in the direction you want it to take.....and away from the reverse, of course.   As is so often the case in heated discussions, the best response to something that irritates you could very well be...no response.  Examine another angle and contribute something else instead.

Thank you.

**content removed, off-topic, baiting**

DPU

I was just doing a tease and was hoping you would be laughing at your end.  It has been a long while since I read the "one dog and one cat" that use to be in your sig.  I also remember the ribbing I gave you by referring to you as the "man from the south" in the PTS thread. 

Sophisticated, indeed. I was not prepared for a curve ball. I was having a weird day yesterday trying to keep appliances running.

DPU

I can't tell you how it feels to see, experience, and feel for a dog that reacts to slightest negatives in training because it has a sensitve psyche.  Most dogs do very well and cope but I am the champion for the ones that don't cope well.

That's actually agreeable and most accurate. Being that dogs are individuals.

Just wondering if I am in the twilight zone or maybe everyone is ignoring me?

Chuffy

If you ask the dog for a degree of self control - for example, "Down", and THEN proceed with the activity, I don't think you are necesarily reinforcing excitement at all.  You are reinforcing calmness and slef control.

I would totally agree with expressing self-control. IMO, the dog might still be excited but he is then exhibiting excitement in a manner acceptable to you. Granted, being calm may be the eventual side-effect, as the dog eventually has a calm assurance that the reward is at hand. But even if it took a while to get there and the dog was still excited, he will be displaying in a way that you approve of. Which certainly indicates that he is listening to you, which is a must. That, in itself, might also be a sign of either some calm behavior, or a lessening or cessation of anxiety. He's excited to know what is imminent but is not worried about it or fears it.

Cassidys Mom

I posted a response to this in the NILIF thread, but since you made the same suggestion to read that chapter in this thread also, I'll post a response here too - I reread the chapter, (which is entitled "What I Really Meant to Say Was....", for people who don't have the book handy), and it's not about dishing out affection at all. It's about sending clear and consistent messages to dogs, particularly in circumstances where we're trying to get a dog to stop doing something, but our body language and voice are signaling an invitation to play. No wonder they're confused!

I bolded part of your post, because I agree with it, and so does Suzanne, but not the way you meant it. In this chapter, she instructs an owner to shut down and disengage from her dog if he's behaving badly, and to use attention and praise to reward good behavior. So she's actually advocating removal of attention as a way to train the dog - to show him what works to get him what he wants, and what doesn't.

And then in the next two chapters she talks about leadership in a way that's very pertinent to this discussion.  

I did not re-read it because I got a very important lesson about that chapter that I often use and I don't want to be influenced.  I have my own view of what relationship and affection mean.  It is clean/clear dog to human communication.  Mono on Mono with nothing in between like food, toys, or introducing NP by ignoring and taking attention away.  In that chapter I contrasted the dog owners approach with SC.  The dog owner did praise for good behavior, gave her signals to correct inappropiate behavior, shoved, pushed, did a collar hold, etc and all that did not work.  What SC did was introduce a new word and work on increasing the dog's and human's vocabulary in contents of free choice and normal day to day living.  She introduced as the new word a body language, a raised eyebrow, a surprised look, and a soft gasp, a normal human reaction.  The dog recognized this as a new communication and then both proceeded to build a sentence.  Yes, build a sentence.....SC gives a normal human surprised look, the dog gives attention to that look, SC relies on other learned words to bridge the meaning of the day to day human reaction.  The new word taught between the two then can be generalized.   I did not see in SC's action a shut down, disengage,  removal of attention,  etc.  To me, those phrases creates a certain mind set in the human and to me once again, that introduces an element of force.  Sometimes force is necessary in some dogs but that would be dependent on the dog and what is happening. 

Here is a segment of what I do without getting into my whole dog philosphy which as I said is evolving.  At the highest level I want to satisfy the dog's needs first and I want to continually build a relationship based on affection.  The dog wants my attention and is creating behavior in a way that shows me the dog WANTS it and probably has worked that way in the past to get it.  There is one assumption that I always make.  If the dog had to create unacceptable behavior that tells me the dog was deprived and the quantity of the WANT was not enough for the dog but the dog settles for it.  So when the urge for the WANT comes around again, the dog will continue doing what it has learned from humans. 

So if a dog wants my attention and does unacceptable behavior ( as defined here) because the dog has learned that is how to get it, I fulfill that need and give it and I have a look of puzzlement as to why the dog would offer that behavior when I know the dog is going to get it....but the dog does not know this.  So I work on relationship building, trust and giving affection.  I pet the dog satisfying the dog's want.  I introduce a change in petting by doing a few pats on the head.  This is where I introduce day to day living.  After the few pats I say "hold on I got to get a swig of my pop".  After that I continue the petting.  Then I pat the head a few times and say "hold on, I got to change the channel on the tv". and then I continue the petting.  These interruptions are very short term in the beginning and are gradually extended.  The dog comes to me cause the dog wants attention, I give it and then do a few pats and then say "I got to go to the bathroom".  All of these interruption are things I do in day to day living and the dog see these things all the time and not only in the contents of satifying a WANT.  The dogs learns and I learn and the need is still there but the urgency of getting it has changed.  The dog's behavior has switched from Anticipation to Expectation (a sure thing).  I always want to the dog to know that if the dog comes to me it will always be a positive experience.  This is so important and translates in other situations like teaching the dog the very important COME command.

I think this is a very different approach and it all has to do with human's mindset.  If one can pretend a dog can read the human mind, why have the rigid thinking of behavior presented requires either a positive human response or a negative human response to control that behavior.  The approach of giving the dog what it really wants and then subsequently controlling the urgency is my preferred method.  Humans want to live peaceably with dogs and dogs want to do the same.  That can only happen when language is bridged and to me when the humans set boundaries and a one sided limit, that creates a conflict and takes away from the relationship.

DPU

did not re-read it because I got a very important lesson about that chapter that I often use and I don't want to be influenced.  I have my own view of what relationship and affection mean.

And that's it, in a nutshell, speaking volumes.

ron2

DPU

did not re-read it because I got a very important lesson about that chapter that I often use and I don't want to be influenced.  I have my own view of what relationship and affection mean.

And that's it, in a nutshell, speaking volumes.

I am not sure if that is a dig or a praise but I don't care.  I do what others aren't willing to try or recognize and the dog's response is the truth, thats what speaks volume.  Seems I have seen this before, oh yeah, it looks like those that say they are using positive reinforcement training methods are moving toward traditional methods.  Just like traditional trainers they also feel they cause no harm to their dogs.

There is no doubt in my mind that your dogs are in Expectation mode and not in Anticipation mode.  By the hands on the clock, by internal feelings of hunger, by the site of food in their right place, they are absolutely guaranteed that the food will be getting in their stomachs.  If you disrupt that routine and introduce the risk they would not be getting food during this human created guarantee time, I assure you their behavior will change and it may change in unrelated situations.

I observe in this thread that when the dog in Anticipation mode it is up to the dog to cope with the situation.  But when the dog is Expectation mode and the dog has been lead to believe there is a guarantee, the human feels they can absolve themselves from the what is expected.

 

I don't think my dogs ever get into "Expectation" mode by your definitions. If I pick up supper bowls, sometimes I'm planning to wash them not feed the dogs. They don't seem to be very anxious about it. I don't feed at the same time every day. They don't seem very anxious about it. I often have treats stuffed in my pockets or sitting around and they don't seem to "Expect" much of anything. If I pick up leashes or a toy I get "Eager Anticipation" but because these acts sometimes mean fun but other times mean tidying up the house I guess they never go into this rumored to be stressful "Expectation" mode. One might say I am careful to never support "Expectation" although I've never thought of in that way. My dogs seem to live their days in states of happy anticipation that something good may come at any time, with varying levels of happiness depending on what is going on. So maybe the problem is people who condition dogs into these "Expectation" modes and then one day, as they must, life being what it is, fail to follow-through? 

 It's like horses- some people insist on feeding very rigidly in an effort to avoid colics, and these are the people who get colics when life happens; the happy-go-lucky people who feed more willy-nilly end up with horses who happily can resist the whims and turns of life.

ron2

Chuffy

If you ask the dog for a degree of self control - for example, "Down", and THEN proceed with the activity, I don't think you are necesarily reinforcing excitement at all.  You are reinforcing calmness and slef control.

I would totally agree with expressing self-control. IMO, the dog might still be excited but he is then exhibiting excitement in a manner acceptable to you.

 

It's more than that though - it's a case of "fake it till you make it".  I think that by asking him to EXPRESS calmness, then as he becomes practices at it, he will ACTUALLY be calm, and his "Down" will be a good, "solid" down, not one that puts you in mind of a coiled spring

Thanks for replying to me!
 

mudpuppy

I don't think my dogs ever get into "Expectation" mode by your definitions. If I pick up supper bowls, sometimes I'm planning to wash them not feed the dogs. They don't seem to be very anxious about it. I don't feed at the same time every day. They don't seem very anxious about it. I often have treats stuffed in my pockets or sitting around and they don't seem to "Expect" much of anything. If I pick up leashes or a toy I get "Eager Anticipation" but because these acts sometimes mean fun but other times mean tidying up the house I guess they never go into this rumored to be stressful "Expectation" mode. One might say I am careful to never support "Expectation" although I've never thought of in that way. My dogs seem to live their days in states of happy anticipation that something good may come at any time, with varying levels of happiness depending on what is going on. So maybe the problem is people who condition dogs into these "Expectation" modes and then one day, as they must, life being what it is, fail to follow-through? 

 It's like horses- some people insist on feeding very rigidly in an effort to avoid colics, and these are the people who get colics when life happens; the happy-go-lucky people who feed more willy-nilly end up with horses who happily can resist the whims and turns of life. 

That's exactly what I was trying to say, but I think mudpuppy said it better.

Chuffy

It's more than that though - it's a case of "fake it till you make it".  I think that by asking him to EXPRESS calmness, then as he becomes practices at it, he will ACTUALLY be calm, and his "Down" will be a good, "solid" down, not one that puts you in mind of a coiled spring

Thanks for replying to me!

Chuffy, I replied to one of your posts too, back on page 6.  I have only seen a handful of Dog Whisperer shows, they were running a marathon one day when I was home sick, and I saw several back to back, but one of the ones I saw was the Viszla that you referred to. When he was talking about modeling the dog's body language after the posture of a more confident dog It sounded familiar, so I checked, and one of Suzanne Clothier's articles does talk about doing the very same thing. I don't know if this is a technique she was doing before anyone else was, (but it predates CM, so she WAS doing it before him), or if they both got the idea from someone else.

It's sort of like conditioning your dog to offer deferential behaviors - eventually they BECOME deferential.