Anticipation and Excitement...

snownose

Very interesting opinions I have read in this thread......I know DPU's record......so, how about the new entry to posting about rescue......how many and what type of dogs have been rescued by you and how do you deal with severe excited dogs???

I agree with many statements that DPU made, due to my experience in rescue......recent resue entered my home just a couple of months ago, and he is doing geat.........cats, rabbit and all.......lol

I'm not sure if this was directed at me?? I quite honestly can't tell you how many dogs I have rehabilitated. The vast majority of my rehabilitation was done in a shelter situation which is extremely difficult, but certainly more than doable with dedication. I stopped counting several years ago, but in 2003 I was up to 83 when I stopped counting. That number is all successfully placed-not returned fully rehabilitated shelter dogs. Over the years I have rehabilitated (rescued) 36 dogs that have actually lived with me while being rehabilitated and that have been successfully placed in homes and not returned. As I said previously I work with the dogs that NO ONE else wants to touch and that other trainers suggest should be euthanized. I have rehabilitated pit bulls, american bulldogs, mastiffs, great danes, chows, akitas, german shepherds, labs, goldens, rottweilers, dobies, huskys, malamutes, and one very memorable scottish deerhound just to name a few. I have worked with more mixes than I can name and many that I quite frankly am not sure what they were. Every last one was abused, neglected, tortured.

As for how I deal with severe excitement: that absolutely depends on the situation and the dog itself. If you'd like to give me a scenario I'd be happy to tell you what I would do, but I can't just pull something out of the air when I don't know what type of situation you are referring to. People's definition of 'severe' excitement is often as different as the people themselves. Although, I think I've already answered this in previous posts?

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

snownose

Very interesting opinions I have read in this thread......I know DPU's record......so, how about the new entry to posting about rescue......how many and what type of dogs have been rescued by you and how do you deal with severe excited dogs???

I agree with many statements that DPU made, due to my experience in rescue......recent resue entered my home just a couple of months ago, and he is doing geat.........cats, rabbit and all.......lol

I'm not sure if this was directed at me?? I quite honestly can't tell you how many dogs I have rehabilitated. The vast majority of my rehabilitation was done in a shelter situation which is extremely difficult, but certainly more than doable with dedication. I stopped counting several years ago, but in 2003 I was up to 83 when I stopped counting. That number is all successfully placed-not returned fully rehabilitated shelter dogs. Over the years I have rehabilitated (rescued) 36 dogs that have actually lived with me while being rehabilitated and that have been successfully placed in homes and not returned. As I said previously I work with the dogs that NO ONE else wants to touch and that other trainers suggest should be euthanized. I have rehabilitated pit bulls, american bulldogs, mastiffs, great danes, chows, akitas, german shepherds, labs, goldens, rottweilers, dobies, huskys, malamutes, and one very memorable scottish deerhound just to name a few. I have worked with more mixes than I can name and many that I quite frankly am not sure what they were. Every last one was abused, neglected, tortured.

As for how I deal with severe excitement: that absolutely depends on the situation and the dog itself. If you'd like to give me a scenario I'd be happy to tell you what I would do, but I can't just pull something out of the air when I don't know what type of situation you are referring to. People's definition of 'severe' excitement is often as different as the people themselves. Although, I think I've already answered this in previous posts?

I still don't understand your way of handlng dogs, or even handling them on an everyday situation......as far as I can explain my experience, *content removed, rude*

snownose

Are you sure leaving him in this state is a good situation???

never said we were leaving him so not sure where this comes from

in case I wasn't clear - Bugsy by and large is now a very balanced dog - he is high energy and easily excited.  Some say if he were 20lbs no one would care - he isn't so it can be too much.  We spent a lot of time when he was young working on him being calm when we arrived back home and then recently relaxed a bit with that - he cannot do that.  He MUST be ignored when you first walk in each and every time.

Willow we have tried everything with 'packing' and his nose knows a suitcase no matter where you put it 

Lastly this thread has a lot of energy - just remember to not be personal - some of you have history - keep it as history please.

Karen - moderator

I still would like to discuss the simple words of Anticipation and Expectations within dogs.  I think Anticipation represents unbalanced and Expectations means balanced within the dog.  Expectations means to me consistency, structure, and knowing.  A dog that is in anticipation is unstable and unsure about what is going to happen resulting in stress and those terrible hormones being released.  When humans try to control the anticipation levels, that is where they seem to get into trouble and introduce the negative quadrants of OC.....making matters even worse.  I think if a dog is in a very excited state when the owners returns home, the dog may be running on anticipation mode and that makes no sense to me. If the dog hears the sounds of the owner returns, it should be a sure bet, an expected win that the owner will appear.  So as I said earlier Anticipation results in Excitement and Disappointment but Anticipation also results in reducing the confidence level of the dog.  If a dog gets excited or overly excited at an Expectation, then I think the resolve is a different approach.  When a dog is an Expectation state, the dog is more willing to listen and the owner does not have to "pin the ears back".  The resolve would be to strengthen the obedience commands.  I am still thinking this through because with Marvin the true SA hound, I think this was key to his total turnaround in being left alone.  Getting the dog out of an Anticipation state and into an Expectation state from which I could then control the resulting behavior.

DPU

I think Anticipation represents unbalanced and Expectations means balanced within the dog.  Expectations means to me consistency, structure, and knowing.

And I have seen dictionary definitions where anticipation and expectation are nearly synonyms. Your description of anticipation sounds more to me like anxiety, which may not be the same thing. Most times I have seen anticipation used, it is the knowledge of what is to come, much as expecting something to arrive. Anxiety would be in not knowing what it is in the future but with the vague sense that something will happen and that lack of knowledge combined with previous experiences may induce stress at the moment. I would use anticipation or expectation to counteract anxiety. That is, the dog can be less anxious knowing what will arrive. This does not mean they will not be excited about it. In fact, you can train a dog, or a dog may learn from the other dogs, to sit when the leash is jingling but that doesn't mean the dog won't be excited. And they are sitting in anticipation, expecting to go out for a walk or car ride, hence, the orderly sit by the door.

Dogs are emotional creatures but not necessarily with the emotional expression of humans, nor necessarily, the human desire to control the display of emotions. And, for many dogs, they control their display because the human wants it that way and has trained them. Dogs do what works.

ron2

And, for many dogs, they control their display because the human wants it that way and has trained them. Dogs do what works.

Yes, for discussion purposes anxiety is an element within Anticipation and not in Expectation.  Dogs can't read a dictionary but are very honest, incapable of a lie and will always show their emotions through behavior.  Owners don't always see anxiety in the dog and I would say generally they don't care to look.  In rehab, I have to be aware of what situations cause anxiety and I have become very good at spotting it and also knowing whether or not a dog can cope with it.  To me the cliche' "Dogs do what works" is a human excuse not to recognize a potential issue and is not applicable to the dogs that come to live with me.  They are unstable, unbalanced, and miserable.

luvmyswissy

Gosh I would think that with fosters that come from assume bad enviroments with little of no training you would have encountered these problems.  But I have to admit I only rescued one dog and for the first month or month in a half she did NOTHING WRONG she never tried getting into anything, jumping on people or even leave my side really I think she was just so unsure she didn't exibit the behaviors.  So I can see why maybe you don't see these behavior in your fosters - with my one expierence I can relate to fosters being well behaved I just didn't think of that..  She is still a great dog but over time and with comfort she has come to sneakily sniff the table or go into the open garbage if left it unattended and accessible.  And she jumps to greet people now too. So maybe it is something I do that makes these behaviors develop, I don't know what it is but the only thing I know to do about it is redirect and set boundries. 

Yes, your one experience is my many many experiences and seems to be the norm.  But, the NOTHING WRONG is long lasting.  I wish a foster would be adopted within a month or a month and half.  But that can't happen because the 1st month is just observing the dog's behavior as it interacts with its new environment, its new pack, and the people that come and go.  We don't advertise the dog until the dog is adoptable and we know the dog's behavior.  And this is the difference I see with what I do versus others, gradual controlled introductions of stimuli so the dog can cope and adjust internally.  If the dog feels and trust its knows where and when he is getting his meal, then he does not countersurf or garbage pick.  Last night, I put my dinner plates in the kitchen sink and left 2 porterhouse steak bones on the plates.  They were still there this morning.  Why would that be a problem for others?

DPU

I think Anticipation represents unbalanced

Well, for those of us with family pets...this is poppycock...oh my forgive the language. 

Anticipation is happiness in my house...excitement is happiness in my house.  I'm sorry, but I don't want a lump of a dog.  I want a happy, well balanced pet.  To see my dogs anticipating something fun is joyful.  To see my dog excited about doing some OB training with the anticipation of getting a reward afterwards (game of chuckit, for example) is joyful. 

I'm truly sorry if you don't have that level of joy at your house.  Granted and understandably, your house is completely different that mine.  I do not rescue and rehabilitate like a lot of you.  I merely have family pets.

CoBuHe

DPU

I think Anticipation represents unbalanced

Well, for those of us with family pets...this is poppycock...oh my forgive the language. 

Anticipation is happiness in my house...excitement is happiness in my house.  I'm sorry, but I don't want a lump of a dog.  I want a happy, well balanced pet.  To see my dogs anticipating something fun is joyful.  To see my dog excited about doing some OB training with the anticipation of getting a reward afterwards (game of chuckit, for example) is joyful. 

I'm truly sorry if you don't have that level of joy at your house.  Granted and understandably, your house is completely different that mine.  I do not rescue and rehabilitate like a lot of you.  I merely have family pets.

Not poppycock at all.  You seem not open to recognize that for some dogs excitement behavior may be a result of anxiety which I equate with Anticipation.  From your description of your house, your dogs are working from an Expectation mode, where there is a certainity that translates into trust and that translates into a great human-dog relationship.  I don't understand why anyone would extol keeping a dog in an excited state when the source of that excitement could be anxiety resulting in unwanted behavior.

Poppycock: 

The first half of the word is the Dutch pop for a doll, which may be related to our term of endearment, poppet; the second half is essentially the same as the old English cack for excrement; the verb form of this word is older than the noun, and has been recorded as far back as the fifteenth century.

Despite some uninformed speculation, there’s no link with the vulgar meaning of crock. Nor is it linked to the sense of crock for rubbish (as in phrases like that’s a load of old crock), as that’s a shortened form of crock and bull story, which comes from a fable concerning a bull and a cockerel.

DPU

To me the cliche' "Dogs do what works" is a human excuse not to recognize a potential issue and is not applicable to the dogs that come to live with me.  They are unstable, unbalanced, and miserable.

Calling it a cliche' does not mean that it is not true. Even the dog that enters your home and doesn't offer behaviors that are annoying to you is doing what works. They've been through some drastic changes and are cautious until they know the landscape. And it would seem, by your own description of how the dog behaves versus how the dog was described to you by whatever shelter or rescue org brought you the dog, that the dog was initially misdiagnosed and not aggressive at all, just neglected or undersocialized. Not true "red zone" dogs. I'm sure you have success, though. If the dog follows the examples of other dogs, they may not get to counter-surfing within your group because the other dogs don't. In a new home, however, there might be different circumstances and some behaviors will arise in a new scene. And the dog is still doing what works, otherwise, you wouldn't have success, either. And Drizzle seems to set the standard, even if it requires ignoring your recall. I would venture to say that she is truly a magnificent dog and is a major part in the stability of your group. In other situations of other people who don't have a dog like Drizzle, the human must set the standard and operate the way a human does, since dogs do not view us as funny-looking dogs. And even then, the dogs do what works. Always. Even Marvin's behavior suited him for a while because it was his only tool for coping for quite sometime.

ron2

DPU

To me the cliche' "Dogs do what works" is a human excuse not to recognize a potential issue and is not applicable to the dogs that come to live with me.  They are unstable, unbalanced, and miserable.

Calling it a cliche' does not mean that it is not true. Even the dog that enters your home and doesn't offer behaviors that are annoying to you is doing what works. They've been through some drastic changes and are cautious until they know the landscape. And it would seem, by your own description of how the dog behaves versus how the dog was described to you by whatever shelter or rescue org brought you the dog, that the dog was initially misdiagnosed and not aggressive at all, just neglected or undersocialized. Not true "red zone" dogs. I'm sure you have success, though. If the dog follows the examples of other dogs, they may not get to counter-surfing within your group because the other dogs don't. In a new home, however, there might be different circumstances and some behaviors will arise in a new scene. And the dog is still doing what works, otherwise, you wouldn't have success, either. And Drizzle seems to set the standard, even if it requires ignoring your recall. I would venture to say that she is truly a magnificent dog and is a major part in the stability of your group. In other situations of other people who don't have a dog like Drizzle, the human must set the standard and operate the way a human does, since dogs do not view us as funny-looking dogs. And even then, the dogs do what works. Always. Even Marvin's behavior suited him for a while because it was his only tool for coping for quite sometime.

Cliche', this is what I meant':  a trite, stereotyped expression; a sentence or phrase, usually expressing a popular or common thought or idea, that has lost originality, ingenuity, and impact by long overuse, as sadder but wiser, or strong as an ox.

Pollyanna was the dog that fear bit the transport driver.  A human bite is a human bite and it is on her permanent record.  Paganni is the dog that went into the 'red zone', when one has experienced a 'red zone' dog one does not forget the dog or the dog's name.  I do have a video of Pags in the 'red zone' and it is very scarey for me.  Drizzle immediately recalled but paused and went into protection mode when the dog being disciplined was coming toward me.  She recalled fully on the 2nd command.

Whats your point?  You don't have any experience of inviting and caring for a shelter dog in your home *content removed, personally directed, inflammatory* So you trying to describe how a shelter dog reacts and copes when coming into a new home is just over-the-backyard-fence-talk.

Bugsy's mom, I didn't reply to your post that was Snownose.  We don't go anywhere so I'm not help in that department, LOL!

Moderator speaking,

ANOTHER request to keep personal digs for PM or better yet...in your head. DO NOT bring them to this thread. ALL are welcome to post and have an opinion and share it...REGARDLESS of their experience or even lack thereof...in your, my, or anyon else's mind.

Do not try to undermine anyone's posts, respect them...disagree respectfully if you must, but if you cannot do so...cease posting to this thread. Edits will be made if necessary and three strikes...you are out.

Keep it civil and you will have no issues.

Like I said,  I have to train redirect and put boundries in place.  My comment was meant to wonder..  did I make her that way?  I dont' think so but I am no dog expert.  

snownose

luvmyswissy

Gosh I would think that with fosters that come from assume bad enviroments with little of no training you would have encountered these problems.  But I have to admit I only rescued one dog and for the first month or month in a half she did NOTHING WRONG she never tried getting into anything, jumping on people or even leave my side really I think she was just so unsure she didn't exibit the behaviors.  So I can see why maybe you don't see these behavior in your fosters - with my one expierence I can relate to fosters being well behaved I just didn't think of that..  She is still a great dog but over time and with comfort she has come to sneakily sniff the table or go into the open garbage if left it unattended and accessible.  And she jumps to greet people now too. So maybe it is something I do that makes these behaviors develop, I don't know what it is but the only thing I know to do about it is redirect and set boundries. 

So, you feel like you did all you could do???

I'm going to reply without reading all the replies first.  These are just my first thoughts on reading the OP.

Liesje

Is is bad or unnatural or unbalanced for dogs to be conditioned (intentionally or not) to get excited about certain things?  Examples: human picks up collar/leash and dog is excited to go for a walk, human picks up food bowl and dog is excited to eat dinner, human starts packing a certain bag or box and dog gets excited to go somewhere....

Now I'm going to argue the point that the dog is getting conditioned to being excited about those things.  It depends what you do when the dog displays excitement.  If you go ahead with the activity, then yeah, that reinforces the excitement.  If you ask the dog for a degree of self control - for example, "Down", and THEN proceed with the activity, I don't think you are necesarily reinforcing excitement at all.  You are reinforcing calmness and slef control.

I don't know if anyone saw the episode of CM and a nervous Vizsla (sp?).  He modified the dogs posture to mimick that of a more confident dog, and as a result the dog actually seemed to gain confidence.  I think I have heard of Clothier employing a similar technique.  The same works in people too.  If you don't feel happy - SMILE ANWYAY.  The very act causes changes in your body which improves your mood!  At school, or at work, if you feel nervous or your self esteem is low, have you ever FAKED confidence - only to find out that after a while you are not "faking" any more?  Same principle.

So if a dog is adopting a more "calm" position (eg "down";) he will START to FEEL calmer just before the activity.  The happiness at being walked won't disappear, the "good feeling" he gets at going for a walk or the prospect of it won't vanish.  But in general I prefer to reinforce calmness - that's the route my gut tells me to go.  If I have a dog who is CALM at the prospect of going for a walk I don;t always NEED a sit to put leads on.  If I have a dog who is CALM at dinnertime I dont NEED a "kennel up".  If I have a dog who is CALM when visitors arrive I don't NEED a "go to your mat" or a "down".  I find that with them being generally calmer, I can actually ask LESS of them - and also, they find it EASIER when I DO ask them for stuff - because they are not spazzing out at the time!