Breed vs. Behaviour, or how one affects the other

 Great topic, Kate!

As a BC rescuer, I run into these questions all the time.  The behaviors of a BC are very set in, very distinctive, and often inappropriate in the majority of suburban settings.  And yet the BC does well as an urban dog?  Why is this?

1. Is ease of training an important factor when choosing a breed of dog, or do you base your decision on other criteria and handle whatever the training throws your way?  Function, of course, is my number one criteria.  For other people who select the dogs I'm "into", it's often something that catches their fancy about the breed.  Border Collies (and Maremmas) have a way of getting under your skin. 
   
2. What do you "forgive" in your own dog because "it's just the way the breed is"?  Absolutely nothing.  If something is inappropriate, we will find a way to channel it in a constructive way.
   
3. In regards to question 2:  Do you even view that trait/those traits as something to forgive, or is it one of the reasons you love the breed?  I view any trait, in any dog, as having a positive and a negative "side" - and it's not even so much of a side as a continuum where on one side the behavior is constructive and desirable, and on the other it's destructive and does not fit in the living/working environment.  Every dog has traits like these, and every trait can demonstrate this continuum.
   
4. What things are on your list of "unacceptable behaviour"?  Meaning, what is absolutely necessary for your dog to do, and a breed known for being bad at any of those things would be off-limits for you?  I can't have a dog that can't switch off its prey/play drive, and yet doesn't have the mental wherewithall for advanced training.  Such a dog is not a bad dog and will do just fine as an active companion or sport competitor for someone - or even a light duty working dog.  I used to be able to keep such dogs myself as I had outlets for them - not anymore.
   
5. And finally....is it FAIR to get a dog known for a particular trait or traits, and then to overcome them with intensive training?  (For example, getting a hound and then teaching it, by a method of your choice, not to bay?).  It depends on the method of training, and whether you are giving that dog an outlet for his impulses.  It would be incredibly unfair to teach such a dog using pain or fear, to be afraid of sounding off in a random way.  You have to teach context when you are working with instinct.  The question you want in your dog's mind is not "Should I ever?" but "Is this the right time?"  For a hound, I'd find under what circumstances they like to sing best, and then do some training under those circumstances.  You'll still have a loud dog, but most likely you'd develop a relationship where you'd feel comfortable encouraging your dog to be quieter.  For the Border Collies, they find their outlet under, well, almost any training, as herding is most of all about the interaction between handler and dog.  I do think it's going to be near impossible to put a safe recall on a hound (sight or scent), but that's the fault of today's world, not the dogs themselves.
   

I was hoping you'd chime in, Becca.

brookcove

Border Collies (and Maremmas) have a way of getting under your skin. 

Hahaha really?! :  All your fault, I say! 

brookcove

 

 What do you "forgive" in your own dog because "it's just the way the breed is"?  Absolutely nothing.  If something is inappropriate, we will find a way to channel it in a constructive way.

brookcove

In regards to question 2:  Do you even view that trait/those traits as something to forgive, or is it one of the reasons you love the breed?  I view any trait, in any dog, as having a positive and a negative "side" - and it's not even so much of a side as a continuum where on one side the behavior is constructive and desirable, and on the other it's destructive and does not fit in the living/working environment.  Every dog has traits like these, and every trait can demonstrate this continuum.

Question here.  If you made a list of all the traits, and the corresponding continuum for each, they are all going to affect each other, yes?  Which would you say is the most "important" as it were....I'm thinking aggression, towards other dogs or sheep, must be worked on before any others?  Not that that's a breed trait, but can be of an individual dog. 

brookcove

And finally....is it FAIR to get a dog known for a particular trait or traits, and then to overcome them with intensive training?  (For example, getting a hound and then teaching it, by a method of your choice, not to bay?).  It depends on the method of training, and whether you are giving that dog an outlet for his impulses.  It would be incredibly unfair to teach such a dog using pain or fear, to be afraid of sounding off in a random way.  You have to teach context when you are working with instinct.  The question you want in your dog's mind is not "Should I ever?" but "Is this the right time?"  For a hound, I'd find under what circumstances they like to sing best, and then do some training under those circumstances.  You'll still have a loud dog, but most likely you'd develop a relationship where you'd feel comfortable encouraging your dog to be quieter.  For the Border Collies, they find their outlet under, well, almost any training, as herding is most of all about the interaction between handler and dog.  I do think it's going to be near impossible to put a safe recall on a hound (sight or scent), but that's the fault of today's world, not the dogs themselves.

This again though is management.  "The right time" is the key factor for me.  There are "right times" for Ben to retrieve or swim or eat...and wrong times too.  But I'd never want to "train out" those traits completely - merely in unacceptable situations.  

I agree about the recall - and in fact that was the context in which this topic came up, for me - discussing recall.  There are just some breeds which can't be safely relied upon to recall, and owning one means responsibly managing it.  Not "forgiving" it in the sense of letting a sighthound off-leash in an insecure area and saying "oh well" when it doesn't recall, but managing it by never letting one off-leash in an insecure area.  And that's the important distinction for me, with any trait. 

1. Is ease of training an important factor when choosing a breed of dog, or do you base your decision on other criteria and handle whatever the training throws your way?

Yes.  My favorite breeds are ones that were originally developed to work very closely with a handler and be very versatile and biddable dogs.  There are breeds of the following types that I love, but I don't ever see myself being a serious hound, terrier, or primitive breed dog owner.

2. What do you "forgive" in your own dog because "it's just the way the breed is"? 

The velcro-ness.  Other than that, not much, though a lot of things other people "forgive" about the breed, I find inappropriate (for example, a lot of GSD owners think that their dog is really good at being "protective" when really the dog is a fearful, reactive mess).

3. In regards to question 2:  Do you even view that trait/those traits as something to forgive, or is it one of the reasons you love the breed?

LOL, yes I guess so.  It gets annoying at times, but considering how amazing the breed is and how much fun they are to own and train, I wouldn't change the velcro-ness if I could.  You just get used to it I guess.

4. What things are on your list of "unacceptable behaviour"?  Meaning, what is absolutely necessary for your dog to do, and a breed known for being bad at any of those things would be off-limits for you?

What's unacceptable depends on the dogs training and socialization, but things I would work very hard to overcome would be a dog that is reactive, a dog that thinks he can make snap judgments, a dog that is too nervy, a dog with no recall/leave it/aus, a dog with any form of aggression, basic leash manners, and a dog that cannot settle in the house.  Overall, the breeds I want need to be smart, athletic in size and conformation, very biddable and desire to work with the handler, confident, solid nerves, "off" switch, mindful of the handler above all else (ie, not relying on a lot of natural instinct), and a good amount of drive (defense and prey).

5.  And finally....is it FAIR to get a dog known for a particular trait or traits, and then to overcome them with intensive training?  (For example, getting a hound and then teaching it, by a method of your choice, not to bay?)

Good question, I'm not really sure.  I would choose a breed known for the traits I wanted rather than have to do so much training, or just accept the dog for what he is as long as there is enough training to enjoy things with the dog (tug, games, fetch, long walks, the park) and the dog is safe (recall, leave it), and well-mannered (some semblance of leash manners and self-control).  My standards do change based on breed, breeding, and the dog's experiences.  For example, from Coke I only desire and expect what I just posted, but from Kenya who is a working bred dog, those things do not satisfy her mentally at all and because she's so velcro, we do more formal activities together.

Benedict

1. Is ease of training an important factor when choosing a breed of dog, or do you base your decision on other criteria and handle whatever the training throws your way?
   
2. What do you "forgive" in your own dog because "it's just the way the breed is"? 
   
3. In regards to question 2:  Do you even view that trait/those traits as something to forgive, or is it one of the reasons you love the breed?
4. What things are on your list of "unacceptable behaviour"?  Meaning, what is absolutely necessary for your dog to do, and a breed known for being bad at any of those things would be off-limits for you?
5. And finally....is it FAIR to get a dog known for a particular trait or traits, and then to overcome them with intensive training?  (For example, getting a hound and then teaching it, by a method of your choice, not to bay?)
   

1. Hard for me to answer. When I got Shadow, I knew nothing. I changed that. And so, it may spoil or change how I view the future. Each breed has challenges. My favorite breed is the Siberian Husky, formerly the chukchi dog, developed by the chukchi ("reindeer people";) of northeastern Siberia. It is one of the harshest environments on this planet. Average winter temps are - 70 F, with dips to -96 F (coldest recorded temp). Depending on which historical source, they were bred for 1,000 to 3,000 years before coming to North America. They are a working breed, commonly a draught animal, that could live with the family. So the needs were intelligence, workability, and temperment. The dogs would sometimes sleep with the children to keep them warm and safe. Yet run like the wind for hours pulling a sled, and be smart enough not to pull the whole rig into a chasm or other danger. Their job required them to be out in front, with the most biddable in the lead heeding the musher's command. And these were directional commands. Although, sometimes, they could herd reindeer, their primary job was pulling and running. Dogs that could this were bred to continue. Dogs that could not were culled or gelded. What makes a dog a good sled dog is, in some ways, nearly the opposite of what makes a good pet. But having learned a few things about training and management, the challenges of the breed need not be so daunting. Notice I said that they were originally good with children. So the notion that Sibes might be find children to be a confusing rank issue is, itself, inaccurate and reflects a different paradigm than the original Siberian Husky. Thanks to the AKC, the primary consideration is size, weight, coloring, also antithetical to classic Sibe breeding. The first requirements should maintain health, workability, and temperment. Regardless of height to the shoulders or a few pounds over "standard" but that's another debate.

2. I forgive the desire to run off, in spite of training. Which is why I worked on recall. I know it's a natural thing to want to run after something interesting and I aim to have a decent chance of being at least as interesting, primarily for his safety. I forgive the desire to breed, a natural imperative. And so, I neuter, to avoid health problems, too many litters, improper breeding match, etc. Playing God in my own way.

3. Independence can be a good thing. If you provide a good enough reason to listen to you, the dog will listen with full intent. So, rather than view it as insurgence, view it as a tool or trait to be used to the benefit of training, rather than opposed to it. I propose that an independent dog might likely have an easier time free-shaping than a dog that is not so independent. And that allows you to use that independence to strengthen training. He gets to discover the behaviors that are rewarding and figures they are his idea and all concerned reap the benefit.

I enjoy his desire and ability to run. It is an awesome thing to behold. Up to speed in two bounds, running faster than most any dog I have seen in person. Double suspension gait, the loping curve of shoulders and haunches. The heartiness in winter. Heaven is chugging ahead into a 20 mph northwind with snow in the face. He has a need to get out in the yard and run like crazy and I enjoy that. Although I have trained fetch, that has an added safety benefit more than a desire to make him fit another breed trait. Some may question my use of Shadow as an example of Sibe traits but my estimations are not all my own. A few breeders and other owners can see it in him. One breeder estimated him to be close to 80 percent Sibe (possible with the process of nDNA recombination).

Probably the only thing that would hold me back from a breed is a tendency toward aggression, especially human aggression.

4. Human aggression. We don't get visitors often but I expect a dog to be good around humans. I expect a dog to be good around or able to acclimate to cats. I tend to have a cat. Our neighbors have cats that run loose. I expect a dog to be able to get along with other dogs in some fashion. There are times when we are around other dogs, though that scenario can be managed. Even though Sibes are reputed to be escape artists, this doesn't mean that they are. The hound mix next door is half of Shadow's size and she would get over a 6 foot fence. Shadow, at twice her size and speed has yet to get over our 4 foot chainlink fence.

5. Reference to #2, I don't think you can overcome the Siberian tendency to run and to do things for their own amusement. I know of a case of a Sibe that had won off-leash obedience awards and he still ran off one day. What you can do is give the dog reasons to listen to you. You can also not walk them off-leash. You can build a high fence with a concrete sill wall. You can build kennels. Or, have your dog stay in the house (sometimes, a good thing int the South in summer). You can train a dog to do most anything. But are we, at best, sometimes succeeding in training them what to do around us, with being alone having a different set of rules? You can train a coonhound to recall (excellent hunting dogs) but I don't think you can train out the desire to sing the song when they tree a critter. Nor should you. If you get such a dog and your primary concern is to stop the bay of a hound or the song of a coonhound, then, I think you, the human (in general) have control issues and are foisting your neuroses on the dog. In that case, get a therapist rather than a dog.

I'm thinking aggression, towards other dogs or sheep, must be worked on before any others?

I work with what the dog's presenting me at the time.  I work the way a dog thinks, one moment at a time.  It might change from moment to moment - I'm dealing with an inappropriate expression of "taking charge" at one second, and the next, the dog might be feeling insecure about what to do.  I take my cue from the dog.  If he has given me a signal that he's open to suggestion, then I take anything he gives next, as acceptable.  And so we progress.

I only think later, this behavior or that might have emanated from some breed characteristic.  It's a fun intellectual exercise but I've found it helps very little in actual dog training.  What helps is seeing a reaction and having as many tools as possible to work with that reaction.

I suspect this makes little sense.  I'm trying to develop an organic approach to training.  I can only use an analogy to desscribe it.  When I'm shearing or trimming hooves, I've got the sheep turned on it's rear end and in my power.  The sheep can only kick, and it will if it feels the urge.   I can't blame it.  But I can train it that kicking does no good. 

I can do one of two things.  I can fight the sheep until it gives up.  Or, I can keep hold but "give" to the sheep, keeping the sheep just off balance enough that it never gets what it wants, but it tries everything it can, and finally decides on its own that lying still is best and results in being left alone very quickly.

This is the only way to train a 300 pound ram, or, back to topic, a 175 pound dog, or, on the other end of the scale, a 5 pound dog that you'd never want to physically force to do anything for fear of injury.  Or a 45 pound BC that is well able to outhink, outmaneuver, and outrun you.

I posted this video yesterday.  This is my young dog's first time working "cattle" - really baby cows, sort of cattle with training wheels.  There were only a couple of unacceptable behaviors - can you spot them?  the answer might surprise you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22BLOxumQz0

 

brookcove

I posted this video yesterday.  This is my young dog's first time working "cattle" - really baby cows, sort of cattle with training wheels.  There were only a couple of unacceptable behaviors - can you spot them?  the answer might surprise you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22BLOxumQz0

I very much appreciate this video and how you go about training.  I have been silent but I have been very disturbed on how some just put their inexperienced herding dog with the herded animal not knowing how the dog will react.  I feel very bad for the herded animal because they are so stressed by the dog's inexperience....not to mention a very dangerous situation is created.  Plus, how can the dog learn to herd if herding the herded is not the way the herded is normally herded.  I had the sound off but it looks like the dog did a couple of unncessary ankle snips.  I also saw the baby cattles turn and look back at the dog and I think the dog looked to you for direction.  A couple of times I wondered why the dog looked at you when it seem the dog was doing ok.....again, had the sound off.

DPU, I've seen a number of "herding instinct" tests and they just put the dog in with the animals and see what happens. Can't say the sheep, who are very used to being moved by dogs, seemed particularly stressed.

mudpuppy

DPU, I've seen a number of "herding instinct" tests and they just put the dog in with the animals and see what happens. Can't say the sheep, who are very used to being moved by dogs, seemed particularly stressed.

Yep, they use sheep that are used to it and not afraid of dogs.  When we did ours, they had the host's sheep out and the judge exchanged them for hers b/c they were too nervous around the dogs.  The flip side was that the judge's sheep are so used to it, the dogs had to work REALLY hard to move them.  She had me get in their group and said to physically shove them.  I couldn't even do it!  The sheep just looked at me like "yeah right" and stood in a corner, not moving.  She said the sheep are not dumb, they know when a dog is serious and when a dog is inexperienced.  In all the tests done that day I don't think one dog even got a good try at nipping sheep.  A few went straight in (Kenya at first), but she had lines and sticks to control the sheep and dogs.  I think the sheep had more control than the dogs for these tests.

these are great questions.

1. Is ease of training an important factor when choosing a breed of dog, or do you base your decision on other criteria and handle whatever the training throws your way?
   very high on my list because I train and compete
2. What do you "forgive" in your own dog because "it's just the way the breed is"?  Prey drive- trying to say keep a cat alive in the house or getting upset because yet another bunny went bye-bye isn't going to happen with my breed choices. I don't expect a dog bred to guard to be super-friendly or to not bark at intruders, and I don't expect a high-energy dog to be well-behaved without tiring out said dog first, but other than that can't think of anything.
   
3. In regards to question 2:  Do you even view that trait/those traits as something to forgive, or is it one of the reasons you love the breed? one of the reasons I love the breed(s)
4. What things are on your list of "unacceptable behaviour"?  Meaning, what is absolutely necessary for your dog to do, and a breed known for being bad at any of those things would be off-limits for you? dog aggression. Any breed known to be prone to dog aggression is off-limits. I also avoid breeds listed as "can't be trusted off leash" and avoid breeds listed as being very low in activity levels; also avoid breeds that are physically limited due to structure such as bulldogs or with a reputation for being noisy yappers.
5. And finally....is it FAIR to get a dog known for a particular trait or traits, and then to overcome them with intensive training?  (For example, getting a hound and then teaching it, by a method of your choice, not to bay?) I would say it's not fair. Also possibly not even feasible with some breed traits.
   

I appreciate your comments (and stepping up first! ).  

First, to address training with "live" animals.  There's a correct way to go about it, and a lot of wrong ways.  The correct way is to use animals that are comfortable with "loose cannon" dogs and understand that as long as they stay with the person, they will be protected.  Much of the abuse you often see of training animals, occurs when the trainer is faced with a dog that doesn't want to interact with the livestock, or turns off too easily, and is trying to get the dog's play or prey drive revved up.  I've gone quite away from this type of approach myself. 

There are ways to use the livestock to encourage instinct in a way that helps both dog and livestock reach a level of comfort very quickly, instead of putting pressure on.  For example, when the calves kept running to that corner, instead of dragging them out or pulling the dog in by the collar and forcing him to bite or something, I went in the corner and pushed them out myself, while only blocking behavior on the part of Ted, that was contrary to the purpose (like running in front so that he was actually in the way as the calves came out of the corner).

Second, the bites to the heel were correct in this case.  I'd never worked with cattle this close before and I was fascinated to note that the most effective way to get them to move was to put direct pressure on the heel.  Most of the time a look to the heel was sufficient, but sometimes I'd touch them with my stick (not hit, just touch) and they'd calmly move off.  It's similar to the "eye" on a sheep.  Like most livestock, they can be guided on the shoulder, but once the action stops they need that pressure at the heel.  A more experienced dog can see when trouble is about to happen and prevent things from stopping - the better/more experienced the dog, the more smoothly things flow, though there's always cattle who will make trouble.

When you start a dog you never will know "how it will react."  You have to just "let the dog go" and you have to give the dog freedom to feel things out and learn the right way to do things.  This goes back to breed vs- behavior.  You can't go in with any expectations - you just have to deal with what the dog offers at the moment.  In this one video, you see Ted go from very tentative to moving the calves with more force than strictly necessary.  There's another taken a few seconds later where he gets tentative again, and then just starts to understand where he can pressure the cattle without having to get down and dirty.

Here's a more experienced dog working. Notice how the dog can move that light colored calf, in the last sequence, without resorting to a bite.  This is Laura Carson's Nick:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTOh8hxJeM

Is ease of training an important factor when choosing a breed of dog, or do you base your decision on other criteria and handle whatever the training throws your way?

Ease of training is not really an issue for me, BUT I need a dog who's instinctive behaviors fit into my life (more or less). A hard to train dog with high guarding instinct would not be ok for me. A hard to train ridgeback? That I can mostly live with.

What do you "forgive" in your own dog because "it's just the way the breed is"? 

I think that relative to my first two dogs, I have pushed back the training time table. My other two dogs were much better trained by this age. I have similar eventual standards, but I don't want to push too hard and end up with a dog that ignores me because I've made life unpleasant. I also put up with certain obnoxious behaviors, like having my face walked over, because I have an active puppy and I like the fact that he has no body bubble. He's my only cuddly pet. I'll take a few bruises.

In regards to question 2:  Do you even view that trait/those traits as something to forgive, or is it one of the reasons you love the breed?

Both. Having Eko has definitely impressed upon me the validity of breed specific traits. Take counter surfing. Ridgebacks are notorious food thieves. I have been very successful with my other two dogs in eliminating food stealing. Sasha has impeccable manners when it comes to that. She will come find me upstairs to "ask" if she can eat the leftovers that my 4 year old left on the ground in front of the tv. I secretly believed ridgeback people tolerated counter surfing, and that I wouldn't. LOL. I can't say I tolerate it, but I sure as heck haven't found a way to eliminate it. I've barely made a dent. There's a slice of humble pie.  

I "forgive" some of the unpleasant aspects of owning a ridgeback because they are part of the package that comes with owning this great breed. Humor helps when you a dog this sweet and this unbelievably bad.

What things are on your list of "unacceptable behaviour"?  Meaning, what is absolutely necessary for your dog to do, and a breed known for being bad at any of those things would be off-limits for you?

Aggression or excessive suspicion towards humans. Aggression towards other dogs. (No pibbles :( ) Guardiness. German shepherds, for example, are a no for me. Being inactive or incapable of being active. I love pugs, for example, but they aren't a dog for me.

And finally....is it FAIR to get a dog known for a particular trait or traits, and then to overcome them with intensive training?  (For example, getting a hound and then teaching it, by a method of your choice, not to bay?)

No. It is fair to channel a trait, as Becca has described, but I don't think it fair to expect a dog to "overcome" a trait. I work on recall with Eko, I give him places to run freely, but I *manage* his independence and hunting instinct by never having him off leash in an environment I can't control. It would not be fair to expect him to have a reliable recall, or train one in using harsh methods.  

The truth is that although inborn breed traits can indeed be a powerful influence on a dog's behavior, they are absolutely not the driving behavioral factors of a dog that is balanced and has a strong, consistent pack leader, owner, benevolent leader or however you want to call it

Example: My Alaskan Malamute Chuck, he was bred to pull but that does not mean i let him pull during walks, of course if i never take him out and after 3 months i decide to do it, i should not expect him not to pull with all that energy that has accumulated

Example 2: Pitbulls, if a pitbull is balanced he does not have to be aggressive 

Example 3: GDS, there a a lot of GDS that are magnificent service dogs and dont have the need to protect their owner against every stranger even when they are breed also for protection 

My puppy, Nicki, an 8 month old, ACD/bull terrier likes to swim out into the salt water and fetch sticks. My lab mix, Mia, hated to swim and only enjoyed water if her feet could still touch bottom. She'd bring the ball back once, if you threw it on dry land...after that, she'd look at you like "If you're going to keep throwing it away, go get it yourself!".

Go figure! 

Angelique

My lab mix, Mia, hated to swim and only enjoyed water if her feet could still touch bottom. She'd bring the ball back once, if you threw it on dry land...after that, she'd look at you like "If you're going to keep throwing it away, go get it yourself!".

Excellent point to bring up, of dogs that don't always exhibit the talents of their breed. Labs are water dogs and were originally bred to jump into the North Sea and retrieve fish, net leads off a buoy, etc. Shadow won't go in water.