Suggestions for Coke ** NILIF people look at pg 5 **

snownose

I play silly games that will have me running from them with a favorite toy and encourage them to follow me.....and they do out of play, jumping in the air, clapping my hands to give the dog the idea that there is a fun time to be had instead of running away,

Yeah, or lying down and/or rolling about on the floor, that usualy gets dogs running back... high pitched noises and lots of erratic movement (especially low-down) will generate a lot of interest in the dog...

snownose

also, alone training time when it comes to loading and unloading the dog seem to be in order.......

You could incorporate this into NILIF.  I'd start with NILIF yesterday, with Coke in particular.  (What I mean by that is, he has to do something in particular every time he wants something.  He wants his dinner - you ask for a sit - if he sits he gets his dinner - no sit, no dinner - walk away and try again in 20 minutes).  He needs to get in the habit of listening to you and looking to you for things he wants.  NILIF works because it gets the dog doing both of those things.  Teaching "watch me" and giving him "super rewards" and "life rewards" in return for giving you good eye contact should also help.... 

I'd leave a dragline/leash on for play...to reinforce the verbal command if need be.

snownose

Coke is getting older,also, the honeymoon stage is over....lol(I call that when a dog fully comes out of his shell after adoption or rescue)....and now, when running into more submissive dogs than him he will try to gain status over that dog.

Trying to gain status over more submissive dogs he's only just bumped into? That doesn't make sense to me. What's the point in status in a one-off meeting? How can status be gained during a brief meeting on neutral ground? I don't think dogs work like that. In a one-off meeting on neutral ground they both just want to feel safe and secure. Some dogs make themselves feel safe by trying to control the behaviour of the other dog. Some dogs make themselves feel safe by accepting that control. It's not a matter of dominant and submissive, it's just a matter of different tactics. Penny only gets controlling when a dog moves in with her, or when a dog comes on too strong and she needs to tell them what her boundaries are. Despite controlling behaviour, she's a well-balanced dog and not a dominant one.

I'd agree with corvus in that I don't think it has much to do with status... I think it has everything to do with Coke just not having the same grounding in dog-manners that some dogs have.  I think the lack of socialisation is probably a factor and the fact that he got so excited/frustrated and had trouble containing himself.

corvus

Trying to gain status over more submissive dogs he's only just bumped into? That doesn't make sense to me. What's the point in status in a one-off meeting?

You would be surprised what happens when several dogs are together and play starts.....my oldest GSD seizes the opportunity to control every situation when a new dog is around.....even when we are at a neighbor's house and he has to associate this with a non neutered male rottie mix.....he has to keep this pack at home in a certain status......and most of the time he controls with eye contact body language and certain sounds.....Coke at this point has no clue how to take control other than being a bully......

Chuffy

I'd agree with corvus in that I don't think it has much to do with status... I think it has everything to do with Coke just not having the same grounding in dog-manners that some dogs have.  I think the lack of socialisation is probably a factor and the fact that he got so excited/frustrated and had trouble containing himself.

LOL, that's a perfect summary of Coke!  He has trouble containing himself with a lot of things!  But that's part of why I love him.  He is my heart dog and I don't want to squash his personality (Kenya is more like a robot than a dog, I like having both extremes), but I would like him to at least contain himself enough to get to have fun like the other dogs.  No one wants to put their dog in the car.  I was so looking forward to letting him meet Justin and release his energy.  He gets exercise, walks, training, play...but nothing compares to playing off lead with another big dog. 

I suppose we have the same problem as everyone else does at some point - he does recall and obey in the yard, but the second I even *try* to take a step forward with proofing in a new environment, it ALL goes out the window.  Now Phil does most of this but he says the same things happen on daily walks and going to the pet store - Coke is just way more interested in sniffing or trying to get away.  Maybe it's an age thing and once he fully matures the big wild world will become more bleh....I hope.... 

I'll try to find another dog for Coke.  It could be a status/maturity thing....but then why is it just Justin?  Coke played with Prudence a Rottweiler and Molly a shepherd/Akita mix within the last few weeks and all they did was chase and a little biting.  Maybe it's a boy dog thing?  He is neutered and has never even lifted his leg but...who knows? 

Chuffy

Could you run through the recall tactics you've used?  Recall is pretty much key.... crack that and everything will fall into place.

We've done the recall game in the yard, sometimes around the house I randomly call him and then treat him, after I train Kenya in the yard I save treats for Coke and work on recalls.  He is on a 30' line (60' diameter circle) so I throw a toy or wait until he gets distracted and then call him.  He comes barreling into me and plops into a sit (yes, we are requiring a sit with his recall b/c before he would run PAST us, that's how he failed the CGC).  He's also good about me calling him off the cats when he gets too nosey.  Now for walks he is with Phil so I'm not sure what they do, but there have been a few occasions where we took both dogs somewhere and I have Phil work on the recalls.  If there are no other people or dogs but myself and Kenya, he will usually come back.  We call him, reward him, say "OK!", and then let him go again so he doesn't get to thinking that recall = fun stops.  Agility last night was the first time I've worked with Coke in class.  Phil took him through Intermediate Obedience and he did OK towards the end.  Again, his obedience is good and his hand luring is amazing (he's very food motivated), but anytime another dog or new person is involved, they are WAY more special than his treats and toys.  The past few times he's escaped, we've caught him only b/c he finally comes up on a stranger and goes over to them, lol. 

So last night at agility there were five other dogs in the class and it was over-stimulation for Coke at first.  I figured out how to keep his attention and keep him near me on a loose leash but at this point I am still treating him literally every 10 seconds (he stopped and did a huge poop and some diarrhea during class).  We did the table, the jump, and the tunnel.  He's very good at the obstacles, one of the best dogs as far as doing it properly with confidence, but I'm luring him onto the table with a treat on his nose and the only reason he was so good at the tunnel was b/c the Terv ahead of us in line was tearing through and Coke thought he was chasing him through the tunnel.  When he comes out he tries to duck away from me and escape, but I grab his leash and he sort of sprints in a circle like a horse on a line, lol.  Part of that is not his fault, I come home from work and we go to class.  He really needs a long game of fetch before class I think but it's not possible right now.

Now afterward when we let him off with Justin and he started bullying, we were both saying "HEY Coke!!" and sort of body blocking into the dogs and Coke paid zero attention, just kept jumping on Justin.  I just reached in and grabbed Cokes hips to pull him back like a wheelbarrow (you know, the Leerburg method, lol).  I leashed him and took him off to the side, but Justin kept coming back over (hello!) and that just upset Coke more, being on the leash and not being able to play.  Also Kenya was playing nice with Justin and Coke plays with Kenya everyday so he probably didn't understand why he was held back.

Liesje

I'll try to find another dog for Coke.  It could be a status/maturity thing....but then why is it just Justin?

You did say that Justin was a push over....very easy for Coke to control that type of dog......his doggie manners should be honed somewhat....he gets corrected by Kenya and other dogs probably appear not so submissive......the status thing happens with all animals.....even the most harmless animals like goats will fight for status......

Excellent post.

Get a whistle, use it with super good recall meat and train Coke on a whistle.........a whistle will be louder than you or DH........

Something, I would use for extreme recall.......but, that's just me.......

snownose

my oldest GSD seizes the opportunity to control every situation when a new dog is around.....even when we are at a neighbor's house and he has to associate with a non neutered male rottie mix.....he has to keep this pack at home in a certain status......and most of the time he controls with eye contact body language and certain sounds

Yeah, well that's pretty much how Penny controls dogs as well, and I reckon she's a bit of a bully. The moment the dog stands up for itself and wins because she's not real big, she abandons controlling tactics and embraces submissive tactics. Sure looks like a change in status, but I don't think that because it looks like something it is something. I think controlling behaviour in general is a symptom of insecurity, because why seek to control others if you are meant to be at the top and they should respect you automatically by some unspoken rule? If a dog needs to control the behaviour of other dogs, surely that's because that behaviour disturbs them. Maybe that behaviour disturbs them because they believe they should get automatic respect, but in real life that doesn't happen too often. I just think it more likely that it disturbs them because it makes them feel insecure. Maybe they feel all the things that matter to them like food and play and toys and whatnot are threatened by this other dog that doesn't know their rules.

I think a lot of dogs never learn other ways to control than being a bully. As long as it works for them, they don't need to find another way, and it works a lot of the time, especially if they are a physically large dog. I still think Coke needs to learn a bit more patience. That's something you definitely can teach. 

My oldest GSD is 8 years old and had to deal with many rescues we have introduced to him.....so, there is a method to his madness.......eh....he does stand up for his stuff and his space.......no backing down on his end.....even if it means a little scuffle.....

You can say what you want, unless you have witnessed several rescues and adopted dogs introduced to a pack and play group you might not really understand.......just my opinion......verstehen......

And you certainly have great experience with a variety of "tough" dogs. What I value about your approach, (implicit rather than overtly stated) is that a dog need not necessarily remain a bully or misunderstood. That there will be a way, or combo of ways that can lead the dog toward a social behavior that creates balance. That learning a new way may be all that is needed.

Luna is over the top when she wants to play with other dogs, and is too herdy with some when playing. We manage her natural play style by not letting her play with dogs that don't like her style and lots of solid obedience, plus self-control exercises.

From what you've said about Coke, it sounds like he needs more work on the basics in distracting environments, because he gets over-stimulated easily. (More valuable rewards and lower criteria for behaviors when in class.)

With Luna, in agility class, I keep her a good distance away from any dog she is interested in, and do lots of sits, downs, targeting, stands, etc -- rewarding her whenever her attention is on me, or when she is hanging out on a loose leash near me. So tons of simple click - treating. It's very easy for her to earn rewards because that environment is much more challenging for her. In fact, most of the treats she earns in agility are not on the obstacles. Over time, she has gotten to move closer to other dogs, but we still do all the same skill work. She is able to work on the obstacles off-lead.

She is only allowed to approach other dogs on a loose leash, If she pulls we take several steps back and stay there with her attention on me and she does not get to meet the dog she pulled toward (pull = party's over). I take her inability to approach nicely as a sign that she is not capable of staying in control of herself at that proximity, and we need to do more work on her basic attention, and work up to the proximity where we failed. She is only allowed to play with other dogs, when she will hold a down stay for 30 seconds and then gets released into play. Sometimes that means we try a few times before she gets to play. We do this every day, whenever we take the dogs outside.

It's kind of a crazy strict approach, but the goal is to be able to raise the criteria over time (which is slowly in high-distraction environments given her confident, outgoing and curious nature) to the point that the good/appropriate behaviors become her default.

^^ That sounds like a good strategy for Coke.  My only difficulty will be his size.  When he pulls, he can really pull me over even though I outweigh him almost twice over (he's only 65 lbs, but he's about 25" tall, a big dog with long legs that are really strong).  In obedience class, we use training collars in combination with mark/reward, but in agility they have to be on a flat collar.  Having lived the beginning of his life tied out on a flat collar and pulling himself wherever he wanted to go, sometimes the only way for me to pull him back is to actually scruff him and remove him.  I hate doing it, but he's so big, so strong, and so indifferent to a flat collar that if I don't do it, not only do I still not have his attention, but he reinforces his own bad behaviors by dragging me around.  This is not an issue on walks or when we do other training in public places because he is either off lead with no other dogs around, or on an Easy Walk or a prong.  He responds very well to both of those tools and I've been harping on DH to remember to reward him every time he turns his attention back b/c the tool is not going to train the dog and is useless to me if the dog has to be wearing it in order to get results.  Agility is starting from zero again because all I can use is a flat collar.  I was thinking of using a really fitted Martingale next time, but I hate using choking to get what I want and I know that's what will happen, he will pull until he chokes himself blue on a Martingale or a slip lead.

I guess we will use this agility class as an obedience exercise.  The field is big enough where I can keep off to the side and step in when I feel he deserves it.  I had no plans to do agility with him (I haven't even had his hips x-rayed yet) so I'm OK with skipping turns because he is being rude.