Suggestions for Coke ** NILIF people look at pg 5 **

g8rfrog

Sounds like a pretty successful play session!  Hang in there with him.  Sometimes the baby steps needed are a LOT smaller than we want.

I think that it is the adventure of owning a rescue dog, learning their skills and their quirks.  I got Oliver when he was three months old, but I suspect he may have been separated early or not been socialized enough as a very young pup.  The first few months were a trial with him because he had very little bite inhibition.  No amount of making loud noises, yelping or ignoring seemed to work on him - if anything it agitated him further.  I finally put on some heavy sweats and employed NILIF - biting me makes me leave the room and ignore you until you calm down.  It worked, but I have a shredded pair of pants and a top that prove it didn't happen overnight. 

Oh boy!  Luckily neither of our dogs have mouthed, but my uncle's dog on the other hand....of course he does nothing to train her otherwise but chase after her and yell at her, which to her is just a game....

DH and I had a chat about Coke and we agreed he needs more consistency and smaller steps so DH is going to come home from work on his break and work with him for 15 minutes a day.  We agreed on what words we use so we are not confusing him.  DH does not have the greatest timing, but he wants to be the one working with Coke so it will just be a slow process and they will learn together.  We went to the pet store and he did SO much better than last time, though DH admitted to having a very bad day last time we went there to practice with Coke so that's probably why he got frustrated and Coke was all over the place before.  Today he was walking nicely and being more police with strangers.  Before, he would want to run up and greet everyone, but this time he did a sit and kept his excitement contained to a wagging tail.  I took him on a shorter walk b/c it's so hot and he did really good, no pulling and he was focusing more (getting rewarded a lot of course).  He would even sit when I stopped, which is something I never really taught him or required him to do on walks.  I dropped the lead a few times with no problems.

As suggested I am doing tighter NILIF at home, though I might need some more ideas on what exactly to do.  What I normally do is when he gets fed he has to go in his crate and wait, not jump on me and grab food (he has never done this anyway), and when he wants to go out he has to sit or stand by the door and, not push his way out (this he HAS done so we are strict about this one, it has been unintentionally reinforced by FIL walking out twice and leaving the door unlatched and wide open *smacks forehead*).  On the walks if he is good for a block or so, I "release" him and let him sniff around and forge ahead a bit for the next block or so.  If he starts pulling, his "free time" is over and he needs to be well-mannered for another block to get another "free time".  I still give free access to his ropes, balls, and chew bones b/c he plays with Kenya with those things, but the stuffies and the new tug are kept away and only used when actively playing with us (ie, they are not chew toys and he cannot take them and destroy them as he pleases).  He also has his favorite squeaker toy in the yard, but he doesn't show interest in that unless we are playing with him so I haven't had to take it away.  I used to let him lick my plate when I was done, but now I set it on the table and he may only lick it if he doesn't barge over and do it before I say so.  Usually I wait 15 minutes or so and if he hasn't invaded our space, I offer it to him and say "OK" (he only licks plates that are basically clean already).  What am I missing?

I think DH is coming to class Monday night so I'll see if I can record Coke for some more input from you guys... or maybe the Justin thing will resolve itself, like when I posted about Kenya and the poop thing it never happened after I posted!

Liesje, are you familiar with Control Unleashed? http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1328&ParentCat=180

It's a fabulous book, full of exercises that would be great for Coke, both in and outside the context of agility. Leslie McDevitt is an agility instructor and competitor - the CU program was developed for her own agility dog, but it would also be very appropriate for companion dogs. I'm taking Keefer to a CU workshop in two weeks, and in the meantime I'm working on mat work and the Relaxation Protocol developed by Dr. Karen Overall with both dogs. I'm on day 5 of the 15 days of exercises, and for the first time he seems to get that it's all about being calm and relaxed on his mat, no matter what goes on around him. At first he was watching me intently, trying to figure out what he was supposed to do, but today he actually put his head down on the mat twice. Each day the exercises add a little more distraction, and so far it's been pretty easy, but I can see some challenges ahead. This site has a link to the protocol if you want to check it out: http://championofmyheart.com/2007/11/12/the-relaxation-protocol-2.aspx

Also, when you do all the above NILIF stuff, do you require eye contact before releasing him? Do you ask him to do something to earn playtime with you or Phil?

 

I think mudpuppy has hit on something.......everytime you post problems and you don't get the exact answer you are looking for you get defensive........you have run into some serious problems with your dogs and never once, have you looked at what your relationship is with your dogs......please, if you don't care to listen to me.....please, listen to some other folks here with experience.......you are looking to get another dog when all these other issues are still a thorn in your side........we all have been a novice when it comes to dog ownership.....only years of experience can change that.........

mudpuppy

don't take this wrong, but I think you have a serious relationship problem with both of your dogs. You report Kenya has no play or food drive, and Coke runs away from you and has no interest in "playing" all sorts of things like obedience, rally, etc. with you. Dogwise just put out a new book by Pat Miller on how to play with your dog- maybe you should check it out and stop the serious training. Dogs who don't enjoy playing with their owners more than doing anything else are of concern to me.

In your very post you stated "so please no "you missed the puppy socialization" because we adopted him at 1.5 years of age."  I think you missed the opportunity to socialize when Coke was first introduced into your home.  Socialization is so much more than Coke just getting along with the residence dog.  I don't believe in that cockamamie idea that there is only a short window in dog's life where proper socialization takes place.  Socialization training should take place each and every time a dog is in a new environment, be it home, be it training class, dog park, etc.  Combined with learning the rules of the house, the dog should not venture out into new environments until the dog has mastered the previous environment.  I think you need to start from square one at home and this will be very difficult because you let the dog continue to get away with unacceptable behavior.  A dog that can not be interrupted from an activity by the owner saying "Hey!", is a dog that will get into trouble and maybe be in harms way.

snownose

I think mudpuppy has hit on something.......everytime you post problems and you don't get the exact answer you are looking for you get defensive........you have run into some serious problems with your dogs and never once, have you looked at what your relationship is with your dogs......please, if you don't care to listen to me.....please, listen to some other folks here with experience.......you are looking to get another dog when all these other issues are still a thorn in your side........we all have been a novice when it comes to dog ownership.....only years of experience can change that.........

I have no reason to be defensive about my relationship with my dogs.  No one who has actually seen me work with my dogs or sees us on a daily basis has ever told me my dogs have "serious" problems or our relationship is in jeopardy.   Actually our behaviorist did a session with us in the park last week and she said Kenya is 100% a different dog than she was 10 months ago.  If you can point out exactly where I am lacking in relationship with my dogs, I'd be happy to focus on that, but so far just mudpuppy has mentioned something that was probably misinformed.  She stated that Kenya has NO drive for balls or food and that is simply not true.  Kenya plays with toys every day; she gets treats almost every day.  When we are training, her rewards are a combination of praise, treats, and some toy being thrown.  Honestly though I spend very little time actually training the dogs compared to the time we spending playing in the yard and just hanging out.  I'm not sure where the idea that I don't play with my dogs came from.

Also, I do not believe that any dog has absolutely no issues, no areas of improvement.  We may have to agree to disagree here, but I just I don't think it's possible to have a "perfect" dog.  Kenya's weakness is that she's not cut out for Schutzhund.  Oh well, no big deal.  Most dogs are not.  It takes her a bit of time to warm up to new people and new situations.  Again, not something unique and more of a temperament trait than a "problem".  Coke's weakness is that he is a young dog with a lot of energy and his training has lacked consistency and structure, likely due to DH and I each working on him in different ways.  Now that I've been able to point out where the problems are, DH has committed to working with him on a daily basis and we've agreed on a set plan of action so one person is not using different techniques than the other.  You are right, this is a novice issue, but I can't force DH to be better than he is.  Coke is his first dog and his family has already admitted to never putting enough into training and socializing their other dogs (who do/did have plenty of issues).  Now that he can see how sad his family's dog really is b/c he was never socialized, he wants to learn how to do these things with Coke.

To me a "serious" issue would be dog aggression, fear, reactivity, separation anxiety, resource guarding, dominant tendencies, chasing and killing other pets, lunging at people....neither dog has any of these issues.  Just b/c I post threads asking for advice does not mean I consider what I'm posting about to be a "serious" issue.  I like this board b/c there are lots of smart and experienced people here so it's entertaining to get some fresh ideas, even about things that don't really matter.  If I had serious issues, I'd be working with a behaviorist.

snownose

you are looking to get another dog when all these other issues are still a thorn in your side........we all have been a novice when it comes to dog ownership.....only years of experience can change that.........

That sounds to me like Lesjie is satifying a human need without taking into consideration the needs of the other residence dogs.  Getting another GSD so the owner can get involved in Schutzhund Training is going to be a recipe for disaster especially if the residence need more time to get properly socialized and trained.   Schutzhund uses a dog aggression in training.  If the residence dogs are not settled, dogs will teach other dogs in their own way and who knows how the aggression part will turn out.

DPU

 I think you missed the opportunity to socialize when Coke was first introduced into your home.  Socialization is so much more than Coke just getting along with the residence dog.  I don't believe in that cockamamie idea that there is only a short window in dog's life where proper socialization takes place.  Socialization training should take place each and every time a dog is in a new environment, be it home, be it training class, dog park, etc.  Combined with learning the rules of the house, the dog should not venture out into new environments until the dog has mastered the previous environment.  I think you need to start from square one at home and this will be very difficult because you let the dog continue to get away with unacceptable behavior.  A dog that can not be interrupted from an activity by the owner saying "Hey!", is a dog that will get into trouble and maybe be in harms way.

Can you elaborate?  First of all....what do you consider "socialization"? Coke has gone all over with us.  He started a beginner obedience class when we got him which involved socializing with 6 other dogs (they get to play in the fenced area outdoors before and after class).  He has had play-dates at the park with different dogs.  We take him on walks to new places, he goes to the pet stores, the bank, etc.  He goes on long walks w/ DH and since we live in the city he meets new people and dogs every time they are out.  It's not like we took him home and kept him locked away for 8 months.  The foster family also did a great job with socialization.  He lived with their two dogs.  They took him to the dog park and hiking.  They also own a pet supply store and he would go to the store for the day to meet people and dogs there.  Is this not socialization?

Also, if you think he needs more socialization, then why should he be kept at home until he "masters" the environment?  Which behaviors do you unacceptable?  I consider bullying to be unacceptable which is why he lost the chance to play with Justin, but I've never seen him bully another dog before his play date with Justin, so he's never gotten away with it before (unless he did with the foster family, but I'd hope not).  I guess I don't agree that a dog has to be *perfect* before he is allowed to go to training.  To me that's what structured training and socialization is for, don't you think?  I don't like to do ALL the training at home b/c that just gives me dogs that are good at home, never proofed in more distracting environments.
 

Cassidys Mom

Liesje, are you familiar with Control Unleashed? http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=1328&ParentCat=180

It's a fabulous book, full of exercises that would be great for Coke, both in and outside the context of agility. Leslie McDevitt is an agility instructor and competitor - the CU program was developed for her own agility dog, but it would also be very appropriate for companion dogs. I'm taking Keefer to a CU workshop in two weeks, and in the meantime I'm working on mat work and the Relaxation Protocol developed by Dr. Karen Overall with both dogs. I'm on day 5 of the 15 days of exercises, and for the first time he seems to get that it's all about being calm and relaxed on his mat, no matter what goes on around him. At first he was watching me intently, trying to figure out what he was supposed to do, but today he actually put his head down on the mat twice. Each day the exercises add a little more distraction, and so far it's been pretty easy, but I can see some challenges ahead. This site has a link to the protocol if you want to check it out: http://championofmyheart.com/2007/11/12/the-relaxation-protocol-2.aspx

Also, when you do all the above NILIF stuff, do you require eye contact before releasing him? Do you ask him to do something to earn playtime with you or Phil?

I've heard of it but not read it.  I'm pretty sure our trainer has it so I'll see if we can borrow it.

I don't require eye contact when releasing him on walks, but if he offers it I do heavily reward it.  If he starts to lag or forge and I verbally correct, I mark and reward for the head turn at this point (same with "leave it!";).

Playtime...no, I don't think he's ever been required to do something, besides the usual waiting calmly in front of the door to go out.  Generally, the biggest play time is when I get home.  Kenya goes nuts with excitement, so she is required to hold a down-stay while I take Coke out first.  Coke just stands there waiting for me to come in, he's never jumped all over me like Kenya used to.  We just go out, wait for the dogs to potty, and then play until they collapse.  When we play fetch with Coke, if he gets mouthy for the toy he has to sit and wait.  I try to throw it the second he sits still, as the reward for sitting and not mouthing the toy.  If he mouths or jumps for the toy I say "eh!" and turn my back.  He doesn't know a release word yet, but he has a very "soft" mouth, he wants the toy to be thrown again so I can take out of his mouth.  He seems to understand the difference between the fetch toys and the tug toys (the tug toy is kept away so he can only have it when playing with us).

Should I have him do more before he is allowed to go out and play? 

I don't know how long you play with your dogs, but mine have access to outside all day long.....and they seem to play for hours once it cools in the summer.......never mind in the winter.......hours upon hours......that is why it so important to be able to let dogs off leash with a good recall, exercise is so much better without restraint......

Dogs with a higher energy level don't seem to do so well in a crate situation for hours, unless they are seriously exercised hard........like I said, hours upon hours......

Liesje

I don't require eye contact when releasing him on walks, but if he offers it I do heavily reward it.  If he starts to lag or forge and I verbally correct, I mark and reward for the head turn at this point (same with "leave it!";).

Playtime...no, I don't think he's ever been required to do something, besides the usual waiting calmly in front of the door to go out.  Generally, the biggest play time is when I get home.  Kenya goes nuts with excitement, so she is required to hold a down-stay while I take Coke out first.  Coke just stands there waiting for me to come in, he's never jumped all over me like Kenya used to.  We just go out, wait for the dogs to potty, and then play until they collapse.  When we play fetch with Coke, if he gets mouthy for the toy he has to sit and wait.  I try to throw it the second he sits still, as the reward for sitting and not mouthing the toy.  If he mouths or jumps for the toy I say "eh!" and turn my back.  He doesn't know a release word yet, but he has a very "soft" mouth, he wants the toy to be thrown again so I can take out of his mouth.  He seems to understand the difference between the fetch toys and the tug toys (the tug toy is kept away so he can only have it when playing with us).

Should I have him do more before he is allowed to go out and play? 

I don't know that there are any "shoulds" in NILIF, but if you're looking for ways to increase the NILIF that you're already doing, those would be some logical places to start, and they're minor changes, just a slight increase in criteria.

When he sits before going outside or coming in the house, or goes in his crate before mealtimes, you can simply wait until he looks at you before releasing him to eat, or go through the door. When you make him sit before throwing the ball, don't release him immediately, again wait for eye contact first. Once he's giving you a fleeting glance, before being released make him hold your gaze for a few seconds. On walks, before releasing him from heel position to go sniff, (which I like, I do the same thing with my dogs), you could ask him to sit and make eye contact first.  

These are just little ways to help him to practice self control, you can probably think of some other places you can raise the criteria a little bit too.

snownose

I don't know how long you play with your dogs, but mine have access to outside all day long.....and they seem to play for hours once it cools in the summer.......never mind in the winter.......hours upon hours......that is why it so important to be able to let dogs off leash with a good recall, exercise is so much better without restraint......

Dogs with a higher energy level don't seem to do so well in a crate situation for hours, unless they are seriously exercised hard........like I said, hours upon hours......

Are we talking about them playing with me, or with each other?  They play with each other a lot outside, they can be out there all day on the weekend or all evening on the weekday if that's what they want, and they are allowed to play in the house as long as it's not too out of control.  The dogs get a part of the yard to play in that's larger than most people's entire yards (we have a very large yard almost an acre, the "front" half is where the dogs play, the "back" half is a swamp right now from the rain).  The part they plays in is plenty large enough for he and Kenya to sprint around and also where we play fetch.  We also take them to different fenced parks to change up the routine or if we want an entire baseball field to ourselves.  He's not leashed when exercised, but at agility in the beginner's level class they are required to be leashed when not taking their turn (you either unclip the leash, or just drop it as the dog goes).  Otherwise, it would be a free for all!  I should mention that ALL the dog's in Coke's class have the same behavior - they are all working on longer focus, not trying to get at each other, etc.  He's not any farther ahead or behind any of the dogs in his class as far as training and manners.  I think they are all about the same age too. 

I agree, leashed walks aren't sufficient exercise for any dog I've met.  We use his walks mainly for socialization and working on distractions, they don't really count for his exercise.

Liesje

Also, I do not believe that any dog has absolutely no issues, no areas of improvement.  We may have to agree to disagree here, but I just I don't think it's possible to have a "perfect" dog.  Kenya's weakness is that she's not cut out for Schutzhund. 

You are right......no dogs are perfect.....but, I really feel that a responsible owner should iron out serious issues with residence dogs before introducing another dog.......why are you so stuck on the Schutzhund deal? My feeling is that if you were so interested in that type of training, why not get a dog that can perform the way you wish from day one? When I rescue, I have no expectations other than a happy and a well rounded animal......if anything above that happens, I am very happy.........example, my newest rescue seems to be a good watch dog.....I am happy......

DPU

snownose

you are looking to get another dog when all these other issues are still a thorn in your side........we all have been a novice when it comes to dog ownership.....only years of experience can change that.........

That sounds to me like Lesjie is satifying a human need without taking into consideration the needs of the other residence dogs.  Getting another GSD so the owner can get involved in Schutzhund Training is going to be a recipe for disaster especially if the residence need more time to get properly socialized and trained.   Schutzhund uses a dog aggression in training.  If the residence dogs are not settled, dogs will teach other dogs in their own way and who knows how the aggression part will turn out.

 

DPU, please don't use this thread to make baseless and false comments about Schutzhund and SchH training. I'm not even going to comment on the ridiculousness of those statements.

Again, I am asking you why exactly you believe Coke is undersocialized?  My resident dogs are as settled as settled can be.  Kenya earned six new titles this year, has passed the CGC test three times, passed the TDI, passed the gun shot eval, passed the training and evaluation for west MI therapy dogs, and is predicated to pass the TT next month.  If that's not trained and socialized, please enlighten me.  Both dogs are reliable in the house together alone.  Neither has ever destroyed anything more important than an empty box or an old shoe.  Neither has any separation anxiety.  We've never had a fight or squabble between the two.  If that's not "settled" than what is? 
 

Liesje

Are we talking about them playing with me, or with each other?  They play with each other a lot outside, they can be out there all day on the weekend or all evening on the weekday if that's what they want, and they are allowed to play in the house as long as it's not too out of control.  The dogs get a part of the yard to play in that's larger than most people's entire yards (we have a very large yard almost an acre, the "front" half is where the dogs play, the "back" half is a swamp right now from the rain).  The part they plays in is plenty large enough for he and Kenya to sprint around and also where we play fetch.  We also take them to different fenced parks to change up the routine or if we want an entire baseball field to ourselves.  He's not leashed when exercised, but at agility in the beginner's level class they are required to be leashed when not taking their turn (you either unclip the leash, or just drop it as the dog goes).  Otherwise, it would be a free for all!  I should mention that ALL the dog's in Coke's class have the same behavior - they are all working on longer focus, not trying to get at each other, etc.  He's not any farther ahead or behind any of the dogs in his class as far as training and manners.  I think they are all about the same age too. 

Excuse my confusion, but I thought your yard was not fenced it and you have difficult neighbors......are you saying they have access all they want without restriction? Coke is not on lead all the time outside of your house?

snownose

I think mudpuppy has hit on something.......everytime you post problems and you don't get the exact answer you are looking for you get defensive........you have run into some serious problems with your dogs and never once, have you looked at what your relationship is with your dogs......please, if you don't care to listen to me.....please, listen to some other folks here with experience.......you are looking to get another dog when all these other issues are still a thorn in your side........we all have been a novice when it comes to dog ownership.....only years of experience can change that.........

I can see your point in taht it's better to concentrate on the task at hand before adding to your plate.  But I think maybe your blowing Cokes "issues" out of proportion a little bit.  Yeah, he has some areas that need work.... but they don't seem SO bad that THINKING about a pup is completely outrageous at this point.  If each of us waited until our dog was "Perfect" before adding another, we'd never GET another.... There are no perfect dogs, just as there are no perfect humans. 

Also, in getting a pup from a reputable breeder, there is usually a fairly long wait.... by which time Coke will no doubt be much improved and the pup will transition into the home smoothly.  Last I read on the other thread (if I remember right) the pup wasn't even definite because Lies still wanted to look at the finances or something, so that's almost a non issue at this stage.