Don't even know if I should post this here...

Gah!
I'm SO confused!!

All I know is, I've been told by a behaviorist trainer and other people too, if you sit 10 behaviorist/trainers in a room and ask them all the same question, you'll get 10 different answers.


So, now, what do I do????

I see I'm going to have to try and find what works best for Ella and for us. Right now, she responds well to correction on the prong collar. I'M the problem. I feel like I'm going to hurt this wonderful relationship we had by changing things on her. She no longer has the freedom to get on our couch or bed when she wants. She's been corrected several times by being made to sit, down, and off. I get all weak and think she's mad at me. But at the same time, I know better.

I'm trying NOT TO BE a stupid dog owner by equating her to a human, but at the same time I want to respect her and want her to respect what I want and by GOD, I DO NOT want my dog to obey me out of fear.
My brother's dog obeys him, but it's STRICTLY out of fear. He has trained that dog so wrong and I want to take that dog away from him because he, I *think* has abused her into obeying him. I HATE HATE HATE admitting that I am related to someone who abuses his dog on a dog forum, but it's true. He uses a shock collar and now his dog is afraid of males. She took about 20 minutes to warm up to me and allow me to pet her without running from me, but she NEVER warmed up to my fiancee or any other male at their house when we visited.

I KNOW that a shock collar and prong collar are two different things, but I do not want Ella to fear me or anyone else.

I should clarify and say that he USED TO USE a shock collar on her. He claims he no longer needs it. No, he doesn't need it. His dog fears him so much that she does what she's supposed to now.

ORIGINAL: chewbecca

Right now, she responds well to correction on the prong collar.

Dont worry, you are fine, if she is ok with rong collars then that what is working for you and if that works for you then you dont need to change it
 
For me treats dont work as good as for some people here that use them a lot, it works for me doing it without them, not every dog is the same, not every thing works for every dog or every dog will react the same to every tool, maybe other people here had bad experiences with prong collars, i havent, you havent, so dont worry [] 

Well, if you are having second thoughts about the prong and the corrections, you can find another trainer to work with. There's more than one way to train a dog and your current trainer is one way. There are others. If you don't feel comfortable administering the kinds of corrections that will absolutely stop a behavior after the first time (this is one argument for strong corrections being more humane, because you only should have to do it once, rather than a milder correction but constantly) then know that you aren't alone there and that a lot of other people accomplish pretty amazing feats of dog training and behavior modification without them.

The misgivings you're describing are one reason why a lot of people started to move to more positive methods in the past decade. Many people describe feeling really ookie and bad when training their dogs but they gritted their teeth and did it because they thought that's what they had to do. When shown another way to train that didn't involve things that made them feel uncomfortable, it was a revelation and a relief. In talking to several people recently about dogs, I've found that many of them report not really training their dogs that much because they thought dog training had to involve harsh corrections and they didn't have the stomach for that. I'm kind of wondering how much of the plague of untrained dogs we've all remarked on it due to that.

I have a large, powerful, fairly squirrelly dog that I trained the Monks of New Skete way. I hated doing it but I thought that was the only way my dog could be trained and happy and safe, so I did it. And sure enough, he's trained (though teaching leash manners on a choker didn't really work except for when he was on the choker). But I found myself growing uneasy about it and questioning what I had been doing. My work with Marlowe, who doesn't have Conrad's squirrelliness, but does in it's place have a working dog's drive and a purebred hound's complete lack of interest in listening to me, has proved that there can be another way to accomplish the same ends.

I think you should read, if you haven't aleady, "Bones Would Rain from the Sky" by Suzanne Clothier. It may inspire you to looking more deeply into developing that partnership you express a desire for.

Ref the leash corrections - I've heard differing views on this one.  Some have said that it's good because its a way of correcting the dog that is disconnected from the owner (unlike a smack for example).  Whereas I think espencer is right and the dog knows darn well where it comes from!  But if it was merely an expression of displeasure then the lead/check chain/prong collar is redundant because dogs are so highly tuned to body language and tone of voice, it is very straightforward to let a dog know you are displeased without a training aid. 
 
The bottom line is the dog thinks "ouch! I'm not doing that again"  It's an aversive technique - which might work for some people but I'm not comfortable using them and I think there is no need toas positive reinforcement usually works as well if not better. 
 
Aversive techniques are completely the wrong approach when dealing with an anxious dog (for a whole host of reasons, up to and including that it just give him something else to be anxious about).  The vast majority of problems (particularly in reactive/aggressive dogs) is due to anxiety, so you can see why I think such techniques are a bit rubbish.
 
You're right about the amount of contradictions when it comes to behaviour, but if what you're doing is working and you're both happy then thats all that matters - you know her best.

You are going to do great sweetie, absolutely great.  Just hang in there. Do what is best for you and your dog.  Not anyone else.

Anyone can bully their dog into doing what they want, but I can see that you prefer having a loving and respectful relationship.

There are many more pieces of equipment than the the shock collar or the choke or prong. I am working with mine with the gentle leader harness.  "Gentle" is the key word.  It works.  Both of us are loving it.

ORIGINAL: chewbecca

Gah!
I'm SO confused!!

All I know is, I've been told by a behaviorist trainer and other people too, if you sit 10 behaviorist/trainers in a room and ask them all the same question, you'll get 10 different answers.


So, now, what do I do????

I see I'm going to have to try and find what works best for Ella and for us. Right now, she responds well to correction on the prong collar. I'M the problem. I feel like I'm going to hurt this wonderful relationship we had by changing things on her. She no longer has the freedom to get on our couch or bed when she wants. She's been corrected several times by being made to sit, down, and off. I get all weak and think she's mad at me. But at the same time, I know better.

I'm trying NOT TO BE a stupid dog owner by equating her to a human, but at the same time I want to respect her and want her to respect what I want and by GOD, I DO NOT want my dog to obey me out of fear.
My brother's dog obeys him, but it's STRICTLY out of fear. He has trained that dog so wrong and I want to take that dog away from him because he, I *think* has abused her into obeying him. I HATE HATE HATE admitting that I am related to someone who abuses his dog on a dog forum, but it's true. He uses a shock collar and now his dog is afraid of males. She took about 20 minutes to warm up to me and allow me to pet her without running from me, but she NEVER warmed up to my fiancee or any other male at their house when we visited.

I KNOW that a shock collar and prong collar are two different things, but I do not want Ella to fear me or anyone else.

I don't have a problem with people correctly using prong collars but the idea of issuing leash pops through a prong collar REALLY makes me cringe. I think your behaviorist sounds like a macho hard-ass, pardon my language, and personally I'd take my dog and run as quickly as possible from that guy... but that's just the way I feel about it. I can see how having your dog get whiney and anxious about another dog receiving attention would be a reason to just be aware that there may be some resource guarding issues between them... but frankly I don't know what "drivey" means in that context and I wouldn't say it's a big deal at all. My dog acted that way with his two doggie "cousins" (my MIL's dogs) when he first met them but it didn't take long for him to adapt and they all get along perfectly well now, even when the treats come out.
 
Now, if this guy's job is evaluating foster homes, you may be plum out of luck as far as fostering from that organization goes. I wouldn't necessarily fight his decisions (why do I have the feeling you'd be on the receiving end of some metaphorical leash pops?), maybe just look elsewhere.

I wouldn't necessarily fight his decisions (why do I have the feeling you'd be on the receiving end of some metaphorical leash pops?), maybe just look elsewhere

 
Jones, you reached that thought before I did. Perhaps Becca's dog would be fine with fosters, if evaluated and redefined by a different behaviorist. Sure, she may have some behavioral issues and those may just be in connection to specific dogs, too. Shadow likes some dogs and doesn't like other dogs. That's a part of why I don't foster, (lack of money being another) and nor do I think he should be "forced" to like other dogs. That's why I maintain control of him until I know he is getting along with another dog.
 
I realize that what I'm saying might infer to say that Becca may have a limited ability to foster, based on the personality of her dog but I do agree that a better understanding of the root cause of her reactivness might help.
 
Some dogs are very guardy. The friend that had the Great Pyr once had a female GSD, 95 lbs of "I'm going to rip you apart and scat the pieces". The dog didn't like men and guarded our friend at all times. Which, when she was alone, was very comforting. With a man around, she would have to control the dog's environment and take measures to help her feel calm. That is, she adjusted her lifestyle.
 
Shadow's one trip to a dog park proved to be a bit much for him. Granted, things are different, now, and he might be different but if we can't spend a lot of time at the dog park, that will have to do.
 
Becca, you might try a different rescue/foster situation.
 

I'm thinking so, guys.

I noticed yesterday,late in afternoon, Ella was trembling during corrections.
I'm correcting her EXACTLY how he told us, and I'm popping the prong correctly (according to how he told me). I give her a command to sit, I was told by him that if she does not sit upon giving her the command, then I am to pop the prong. I was doing this and then I got her to a point where she doesn't need me to use the prong during a "sit" command, but she trembles. I'm NOT harsh with my dog. I am not yelling at her. I am not hurting her, but I fear that she is going to fear me if I continue to correct her this way.

Everything was fine with the corrections until late yesterday afternoon. That's when I noticed her trembling. She does it for my fiancee too. She's not cold and she's not ill. When I give her the sit command, she sits, but she bends a paw and trembles.

I'm confident with her and I'm not nervous so it's not like she's feeding off any type of off emotion I'm having or anything like that. I praise her a TON when after she sits or goes into a down position for me.

I've emailed the lady at the shelter that has been working with me. I told her that I canNOT have my dog fearing me. I won't have it. I understand establishing leadership and I know that she has to understand that we are in charge and we are the leaders, but I don't want her cowering or trembling everytime I give her a command. It makes my stomach turn. Maybe I'm weak right now or maybe I'm stuck in the whole "my dog is my baby" mentality, but the thought of her being afraid of me is enough to make me want to cry.

She's a damn good dog. She NEVER jumps on people when we have people over or even when she sees other people on the street. She's gentle with my children and would NEVER jump on them and has the most patience with them. She doesn't growl or bark at anyone. She sits perfectly when I have her ball and waits for me to throw it before she gets up. Other than when we come across other dogs that are on a leash, she is really well behaved. Oh, and her drop it command is almost perfect and was that way when we got her.

I've spoken with a different girl that used to volunteer at the shelter I got Ella at. She's worked with Ella before and she knows the name of the original behaviorist/trainer that used to work for the shelter Ella was at. I have NO idea why that shelter stopped using the original behaviorist/trainer, but from what this girl tells me, the original behaviorist/trainer is REALLY good and she's going to give me his/her name and number.

But as of right now, this very second, yes, I'm upset that my dog trembles when I give her a command using the prong collar. But I was not upset before I realized this trembling was happening.

Et voila - the reason I do not like aversive techniques.  If you are not comfortable, try another foster organisation and and different trainer.  I hate it when a dog appears to cringe as s/he is carrying out a command.  I love it when I see a dog sit with his ears up and a smile on his face, or heel with his tail up and wagging, looking uo at his handlers face, really enjoying the work.  Apart from anything else, "correcting" the dog all the time for his mistakes makes him nervous and nervous dogs don't learn as well.  It also stops him from thinking for himself and trying new things, because he's worried that a correction may follow.  As with human brains "if they don;t use it they lose it", so dogs taught this way are often "dumber" than the ones taught using more modern kind positive reward based methods. 
 
There are other things you can try - for example, find a good book on clicker training and try that instead, I think you will be more comfortable with it and I think your dog will be happier.  Try a gradual de-sensitizing process (maybe something a bit like my earlier post for example) and see how you get on.
 
As for establishing leadership, you do not have to do this by physically correcting the dog, or inflicting any pain or on her or using any force whatsoever.  NILIF for example.  Grooming is another way we can establish leadership.  Set simple rules and boundaries - for instance, my dogs must be calm and sit to have their lead put on when I take them for a walk or pet them.  No calm sit - no walk/fuss.  Dogs are pretty smart, they do catch on and this does work.  In a nutshell, everything should happen on your terms and she should have to work for it.  Above all, STAY CALM - don't fret, don't be worried you're doing it wrong, and don't get cross when she makes mistakes.  =

she bends a paw and trembles

 
That bent paw is a gesture of submission. I don't want to come down on you because I think you're just trying to do what's right for your dog, but it sounds like you're freaking her out - she doesn't have to be in physical pain to be scared and confused. I would encourage you to switch to positive reinforcement training with Ella... keep the prong but please don't leash pop with that thing on... there are better ways to train, much better ways.

Yeah.
Just to let you know, as soon as I realized that she was trembling when I was giving her corrections, the corrections with the prong collar stopped.

There's a few options I have.

I can either except that my dog is a great dog for us, and work with her on her basic commands more consistently using treats and NILIF.<---which, from what I've read, would be really good for Ella because she is pretty obedient already. And she KNOWS her basic obedience commands already, it's just a matter of getting her to do the commands the first time I ask her. And I know that that's not ALWAYS going to happen.

Try clicker training.

Contact another behaviorist. To do that is going to be expensive because in order to get a good one we have to get one up in Chicago. The drive is not easy for us especially with me being a full-time college student, having children, and my fiancee working. So, most likely, one would have to come to us. That's going to add to the price. I can do this, but then I have to ask myself: Is it really that necessary???

Foster for an actual pit bull rescue or find someone whose major specialty is dealing with pit bull behavior. This person would be able to definitely tell me whether or not my dog is DA and/or if it's workable. I've already decided that if I have to go through that canine nazi (I shouldn't say that,really, he's not bad, just not for MY dog) in order to foster for the shelter that's working with me now, I simply will NOT be fostering for them. There are other places I can foster for that would work with me and would love to have my help.



Honestly, I had a nightmare about my dog and all of this the night before last. Before I read your post, Jones, or Ron's.
I knew I felt something wasn't right when I realized she was trembling. At first I thought she was just shaking because she was cold. So, I would feel her between commands and there was no shaking. That's when I realized that she was shaking from the commands.
I'll post my dream for any who care to read it, but I'm warning you, it's a WICKED dream.
I sent it in a PM to jj's_mom, so I copied and pasted:

she had on a muzzle, but it wasn't just on her muzzle; it covered her entire head. And she was obeying some more advanced commands but she was doing so because she had this thing on her head AND she was being whipped by some unseen guy. He spoke to us and Ella started looking at something above our heads, behind us. The voice of the unseen guy was yelling at us, "Look at what she's looking at! JUST LOOK AT WHAT SHE SEES!!!" and I remember knowing, in my dream, that what she was looking at was something EVIL. And I was scared to turn around and see what it was. I turned around slowly and as I got to what it was, right before I saw it, I woke up. I shot out of bed and made coffee immediately. I was scared. But as I had my coffee, I forgot about the dream until now. And I don't even know what triggered the memory.

I normally don't dream analyze, because that's normally hokey to me, but this honestly was a fear/guilt triggered dream.
I think that the unseen guy was obviously this trainer. I think he was unseen because he's not physically here giving her the commands. And I think had I been able to see what was behind me before waking up, I would've seen us. I would have seen me and my fiancee. I think this because with the corrections and prong popping, these were his teachings. We were doing what HE taught us. But Ella isn't going to see that it's HIM, she's going to see us giving her the commands and not that we were only doing what he told us to. I don't know if that makes any sense, but as soon as I wasn't scared out of my mind when I woke up, and I was able to recover from the guilt that came directly after that, this is what I thought.

Relax!  Try to keep things in perspective - you know your dog is not a reprobate!  She sounds like a lovely, normal dog.  If you want to foster, you'll probably need to improve her basic obedience a little bit, that's all. 

If I were in your position, I'd put the fostering on hold for a short time and just go back to basics with her, pretend she's a puppy and start over.  But this time, make 100% certain you only give each command ONCE, because it sounds like that's one of the main things you wanted to work on.  Make it hard for her to fail and easy for her to get right so you get lots of chances to praise and encourage her.  Initially only say the cue actually as she is carrying it out.  Stick religiously to only giving a cue once each time - say her name first so you've got her attention, give the cue.  If she looks like she's thinking about it, just wait a moment - give her every chance to do it on the first go.  If not, then calmly put her in the position, praise her and make a mental note to go back a few paces and work a little more on that one.  You might be pleasantly surprised.
 
Edited to add - Have you taught her to "watch me"? (look at your face for a lengthening amount of time)  It's easiest to do holding a small treat near your face.  Then use same signal but not holding a treat and reward her at the end of the exercise.  Finally you can phase out the hand signal altogether and then only offer a treat on very rare occasions.  If you haven't taught her this and want to try clicker training, use the clicker to teach it to her.  Then when you are out you can use "watch me" when you see something she normally reacts to - but build up to this level slowly and give other dogs as wide a berth as she needs to stay relaxed and find it easy to focus on you.  Make sure you take a high value motivator to reward her for this, as she will have to re-learn it to some extent once she's outside the home in some challenging environments.

ORIGINAL: Chuffy

Relax! Try to keep things in perspective - you know your dog is not a reprobate! She sounds like a lovely, normal dog. If you want to foster, you'll probably need to improve her basic obedience a little bit, that's all.

If I were in your position, I'd put the fostering on hold for a short time and just go back to basics with her, pretend she's a puppy and start over. But this time, make 100% certain you only give each command ONCE, because it sounds like that's one of the main things you wanted to work on. Make it hard for her to fail and easy for her to get right so you get lots of chances to praise and encourage her. Initially only say the cue actually as she is carrying it out. Stick religiously to only giving a cue once each time - say her name first so you've got her attention, give the cue. If she looks like she's thinking about it, just wait a moment - give her every chance to do it on the first go. If not, then calmly put her in the position, praise her and make a mental note to go back a few paces and work a little more on that one. You might be pleasantly surprised.

Edited to add - Have you taught her to "watch me"? (look at your face for a lengthening amount of time) It's easiest to do holding a small treat near your face. Then use same signal but not holding a treat and reward her at the end of the exercise. Finally you can phase out the hand signal altogether and then only offer a treat on very rare occasions. If you haven't taught her this and want to try clicker training, use the clicker to teach it to her. Then when you are out you can use "watch me" when you see something she normally reacts to - but build up to this level slowly and give other dogs as wide a berth as she needs to stay relaxed and find it easy to focus on you. Make sure you take a high value motivator to reward her for this, as she will have to re-learn it to some extent once she's outside the home in some challenging environments.

Thanks!

Don't get me wrong, I completely plan on putting fostering on hold for now. Believe me, I have thought this through and I KNOW that I cannot foster at this moment. And I'm surely NOT going to put my dog through hell just to do so. I understand that when and if I decide to foster there is going to be an adjustment period for her. She'll probably never completely like all dogs. I realize I cannot make her. I feel much better today than I did yesterday. That nightmare was a nightmare I had Monday night when I wasn't sure what to do about the situation. I am not a trainer. I have never had to train a dog before. I am also not a behaviorist; I have no idea how to read a dog's subtle behaviors or less obvious ones, anyway. So, you can see how I would have been like, "Oh...Ok, if he says we should do this, we probably should since he is a behaviorist/trainer and we aren't. He knows what he's talking about. He HAS TO, he has a ton of clients and works with the shelter. People trust him, so I probably should too." And he probably has straightened out many badly behaved dogs. He's probably taken plenty of DA pit bulls (and he has for a fact) with other severe behavioral issues off the streets and retrained them and made them adoptable dogs. But my dog isn't badly behaved. She doesn't respond well to militant behavior modification.
I know this now.
I don't have a problem with Ella being on my couch, as long as I invite her there and she gets off when I tell her to. I will continue to work with her and I DO want to start clicker training. I have to go pick up some tripe I ordered tomorrow from the local doggy healthfood store. There will be a local behaviorist/trainer who will be working the counter, so I will ask her about having a private evaluation done on my dog. I might just see what she thinks. I have spoken with her before, but I cannot remember the price she quoted me. If I can afford to have her work with Ella, I might just go that route. She is not a militant trainer/behaviorist.


Thanks for the "look at me" tip. I'm going to try that.[]

I know no one is probably reading this thread anymore, but I found a trainer and behavior consultant in my area that I'm bringing Ella to for a private evaluation/lesson next week.
She's VERY inexpensive and very helpful. She has people practice NILIF and she, like Anne, does not believe that giving a dog a harsh correction for a negative behavior is going to give the results desired. She said exactly what Anne said about how if I use a pop on the prong to correct her around other dogs she is probably not going to learn that it's inappropriate behavior and to stop it, but instead it's going to make her hate dogs all that much more.

She charges $15/half hour or $30/hour which is SO inexpensive to me. I was expecting to pay a LOT more than that for what she is offering to do for us. She said to bring either her favorite treats, her cuz ball, and/or some cooked chicken breast or roast beef to get her to focus on me.


YAY!!! I'm excited![]