Dog Community

Don't even know if I should post this here...

Posted : 12/18/2006 9:07:58 AM

A.) I know A LOT of you here don't train with a prong collar B.) I feel like a clueless owner and don't want to be ridiculed for it because I AM totally clueless to dog behavior.

I'll cross-post MY post that I posted on another board.
Here it goes:

Do Any of you feel like a crappy dog owner when you bring your dog to behaviorist/trainer and you think you have this wonderfully behaved dog, but AFTER you see the behaviorist/trainer you realize that your dog isn't as well behaved as you thought?

I plan on fostering for the shelter (well, the volunteers anyway) that I got Ella from. They work with a behavorist/trainer who works with their dogs, evaluates and trains them to help make them adoptable. Well, I went up to Chicago to meet the new possible fosters and to have him observe her behavior (and the other dogs as well) with the other dogs. Well, Ella's very drivey and territorial, which is not something that is bad, he said. He explained that dogs are that way. He did NOT feel comfortable with her body language towards the first dog. The first dog was more timid and uncomfortable. The lady from the shelter had the foster on a leash, and the behaviorist trainer had Ella on another leash. He carefully brought her over and had to correct her and get her to sit. He stood side by side with the shelter lady and had Ella on his outside side, and she had the foster on her outside side. He would then calmly pet the foster on the head and watched Ella's reaction. She got stiff and perked her ears and whined. He corrected her. He had to correct Ella's behavior several times. He told us he was not comfortable with how she reacted to the foster.

The second dog was more puppy-like and had a friendlier, more comfortable attitude and body language. He had my fiancee take Ella's leash and him correct her behavior. She was not listening to my fiancee very well. She was excitable and whiney.
He said that if any dog was going to work for us to foster it would have been the second one. That dog was VERY lovey with my son and had a more laid back personality. And that's another thing. While my son was petting on this dog and this dog was interacting with my son, Ella was very whiney. He had us correct her anytime she whined like that. He said that she is a very drivey dog and we cannot change that (which I know), but what we have to work on is her listening to our commands better. He used the word "out" with her. Whenever he gave her the "out" command she stopped whatever she was doing immediately and changed her behavior and became more calm and obedient.
He said for him to feel comfortable with us fostering a dog, he wants to see her obeying our commands immediately. He said that her personality is very dominant and if a dog does what she says, it'll probably work out. But that's where we come in. He explained that if a dog comes into our home it could or could not work right now. He said he's afraid, right now, that if we brought another dog into our home that the first time a dog crossed a line with Ella by breaking some rules that SHE has established, it would turn out VERY badly. He said that we need to establish with her that SHE doesn't make the rules, we do.

We also found out that we are not using her prong collar correctly. We are apparently being too gentle with our tugs on it. He taught us how to use it properly and how to tug on it more firmly. He also said to use an overhand holding on the leash so that our wrist is free to move and correct her. We were holding the leash with an underhand, which locks the wrist.

He's going to be looking into sending one of his workers out to our house to work with her once a week.

I thought Ella was pretty well behaved for us at home. And she is. But (and I realized this, I guess just not to the appropriate extent) bringing another dog into a situation is going to place expectations on her behaviorally, that we've never had to place on her before. So, the dynamic changes and her behavior changes and it made me see how we have less control over her than I had thought.
At my home, we let her on the couch with us. If we want her off, we say "off" and she gets off the couch. Same with our bed. But now that I look back, we have been having to say "off" a couple of times before she gets off the couch/bed. Also, she's been putting her front paws up on the counters, which I correct her for, but she'll do it again. He said that even though she behaves well with us, she IS starting to equal herself a bit to us. And we need to correct that now, or bringing another dog into the situation could be a problem.

Gosh. I feel like the WORST dog owner. Like, I should have established this crap a long time ago, but I didn't realize it was a problem, you know?

Sorry this is so long, and please don't yell at me for being a bad dog owner. It's hard for me to post this here because you all seem to have SUCH well behaved dogs who can co-exist with other dogs in your home and if they can't, you all seem to know exactly how to handle the situation.

stormyknight

Posted : 12/18/2006 9:23:01 AM

So just to be clear, when he said Ella is a "drivey-dog" was she "drivey" towards the other dog or just in general? My malinois is very drivey as well, and like you said, it is something that can be managed but not trained-out. What kind of dog is Ella (sorry I'm new here!)? Is she dog-aggressive, or just dog-dominant?

houndlove

Posted : 12/18/2006 9:38:07 AM

I am so far from an expert it is laughable, but honestly, it just sounds like Ella is a normal dog. We all have things that our dogs do that we find okay some other people might have a problem with. We let our dogs on the furniture, Conrad helps himself to the foot of the bed at night, and we often encourage them to stand on their hind legs as a trick. Someone else might look at that and be mortified, but we all know our own dogs best.

We put our dogs into very artificial situations every day and place a lot of expectations on them. Bringing another, strange dog into the pack is a weird thing for a dog, yet we do it all the time and expect them to just be totally fine with that from the word "go". We expect them, while out walking, to not pay any attention to the fact that there's another dog, giving all kinds of loud and clear canine language saying this and that and the other mere feet away from them, and they should be able to ignore it. I get really upset when Conrad reacts negatively to another dog who's near to him who is basically screaming "I HATE YOU I HATE YOU I HATE YOU!!!" or "I LOVE YOU I LOVE YOU I LOVE YOU!!!" Asking him to ignore that and only pay attention to me is extremely advanced obedience and pretty unnatural for a dog.

I'm not sure that I agree with your trainer that Ella's selective hearing is due to her thinking she's your equal. There's lots of reasons that dogs don't obey a command the first time, and a lot of the time it's due to the owner using multiple repetitions of the command from the beginning, so the dog winds up thinking the command is "off, off, off, OFF!" and not just "off". Dogs also learn situationally, so while I've taught Marlowe "off" when I'm standing next to the bed or the couch, he's still learning it when I'm actually sitting on the couch or am in bed.

But as I say, I'm not an expert.

I don't use aversive training devices, but I have read that if you are going to use one, you'd better be prepared to administer a correction strong enough that the behavior absolutely won't be repeated again. If you aren't prepared or able to do that, the dog will just become habituated to the mild correction and it won't have any impact on behavior.

chewbecca

Posted : 12/18/2006 10:53:48 AM

ORIGINAL: stormyknight

So just to be clear, when he said Ella is a "drivey-dog" was she "drivey" towards the other dog or just in general? My malinois is very drivey as well, and like you said, it is something that can be managed but not trained-out. What kind of dog is Ella (sorry I'm new here!)? Is she dog-aggressive, or just dog-dominant?

He said Ella is drivey in general (er...or so I assumed he meant general because he didn't say "other dog drivey") AND towards other dogs. And the more dog aggressive the other dog is, the MORE reactive she is. Which, I know, it makes sense.
She is a pit bull mix (but, for all temperament or behavioral reasons, she is a pit bull).
She is territorial and drivey. That's what he said. Both things which you cannot train out, but manage through her obeying our commands.

Houndlove:
I know it's not that Ella is being anything but a normal dog (especially for a pit bull), but bringing another dog into the picture, he feels, is more than what we'll be able to control with her right now.
Before we foster he wants to feel that we have enough control of her (in a situation with a dog) that when we say "out", she stops what she's doing immediately. I KNOW, it sounds very high expectations-ish. But he also works with a LOT of pit bulls because that is what this shelter gets a LOT of (aren't pit bulls the number one dog in most shelters?) so he knows how stubborn and drivey they can be when it comes to behavior and other dogs.
Due to us having children in our home, he feels it safest that we work more with Ella before fostering. He wants to know that if there is a disagreement between the dogs (and he for sure feels that the disagreement will be due to Ella) we have the ability to control the situation. He doesn't feel that we have established that well of control with Ella yet.

spiritdogs

Posted : 12/18/2006 10:58:17 AM

To be honest, this is not someone I would let work with my dog. Correction can make leash reactivity or dog aggression much worse, rather than better. If you need to work on basic obedience, do it with someone who understands dog behavior and use a method that is dog-friendly.
And, be aware that if your dog has not been well socialized with other dogs that she doesn't know, she may never readily accept a foster dog in your home unless it's a young puppy under 4 months of age, or a very submissive type, perhaps a male. This is actually normal canine behavior, not abnormal. It's just that humans are sometimes able to modify it quite a bit by keeping a dog social throughout its puppyhood and on into adulthood.

espencer

Posted : 12/18/2006 11:08:01 AM

You are not a bad dog owner, a real bad dog owner would not look for help and will let the dog do whatever he wants from the beginning, would only give love but not discipline and would not excersice him, now a real real bad owner would hit their dogs

I would say you are a responsable owner that just like any of us here didnt born knowing a lot of stuff about dogs but now you are

The behaviorist is right, it would be better if the new dog can show it can get along your your own dog to make thinks easier, bringing a new dog does not alway affect the existing dog in a negative way AS LONG as you start setting the "house rules" (that the new dog does not know already) as soon as the new dog enters the house

Here are 3 links that talk about what to do when you bring a new dog to your house:

[linkhttp://cesarmillaninc.com/blog/Season2ep02.php]http://cesarmillaninc.com/blog/Season2ep02.php[/link]
[linkhttp://cesarmillaninc.com/blog/Season2ep04.php]http://cesarmillaninc.com/blog/Season2ep04.php[/link]
[linkhttp://cesarmillaninc.com/blog/Season2ep06.php]http://cesarmillaninc.com/blog/Season2ep06.php[/link]

spiritdogs

Posted : 12/18/2006 11:21:44 AM

Here are some better links to give you step by step ways to train each behavior you want your dog to do:
www.clickerlessons.com
Also, Google on NILIF - "nothing in life is free" - you do NOT have to use force on your dog to be a firm, consistent & good leader, however. And, if you do, you darn well better know when and how it's appropriate so that you don't do more harm than good.
Recommended reading list for someone who has a reactive or drivey dog that gives negative signals to other dogs while on leash:
"Feisty Fido" by Patricia McConnell
"Click to Calm" by Emma Parsons
"Scaredy Dog" by Ali Brown
Nearly 80% of reactivity is caused by fear or anxiety, not by a dog wanting to "dominate". Even if that were the case, as it sometimes is, the harsh use of a prong collar will not diminish that reaction. The dog is likelier to think..."Every time I see another dog my neck hurts - I *hate* other dogs". Thus, the reaction gets more aggressive - as a way to make the other dog go away more quickly. Be really careful whose advice you take! The key to making a dog more comfortable in the presence of other dogs over the long term lies with classical conditioning and exercises that keep the dog's attention on the handler.
Great resources:
Brenda Aloff has a great book on canine body language, to help you figure out what your dog is *really* saying.

espencer

Posted : 12/18/2006 11:37:37 AM

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

The dog is likelier to think..."Every time I see another dog my neck hurts - I *hate* other dogs". Thus, the reaction gets more aggressive - as a way to make the other dog go away more quickly.

Oooorrr he might think "Every time I see another dog my neck hurts - I would stop looking at other dogs to avoid the pain". Just like when you get burned by the stove you dont hate other stoves in the world, you just are more careful of not to do it again to avoid the pain [

]

The dog is smarter than that, he knows the correction in the neck is not caused by the other dogs but by the behavior he is doing (like looking, growling at them, etc) then is more likely to think they "hate" to look at other dogs or to growl at other dogs because everytime that happens the correction to the neck comes

chewbecca

Posted : 12/18/2006 12:16:42 PM

thanks guys!
Your information is valuable and I'll look into different options.
Ella has some obedience training down, and I know that training is a constant reinforcement deal. Yes, we have slacked on a few things that we weren't aware of until it took a behaviorist/trainer to point it out to us. With his trained eye, we were shown what to look for, when to correct, and what to allow and not to allow.
He did say that 90% of the time, had he sent a dog home with us it probably would work, but he just didn't feel comfortable with her body language with the other dogs and he wants us to have better control over her before we foster.

tashakota

Posted : 12/18/2006 12:44:55 PM

Am I the only one who thinks corrections using a prong are wrong? Aren't prong collars supposed to be self-correcting? And not used for yanking on when a dog does something you don't like, like a nylon choke?

espencer

Posted : 12/18/2006 12:49:17 PM

ORIGINAL: tashakota

Am I the only one who thinks corrections using a prong are wrong? Aren't prong collars supposed to be self-correcting? And not used for yanking on when a dog does something you don't like, like a nylon choke?

Actually prong collars were invented to simulate the "biting" of an "alpha" dog correcting another dog so in fact they were specially made to do corrections, using it wrong can cause damage to the dog, using it right can be very helpful, i bought one for my friend who was having trouble walking her dog and the prong collar help her a lot, i was extra careful on buying ruber protections to fit in every "nail" of the prong collar to be less harmful to the dog

J M

Posted : 12/18/2006 1:40:47 PM

I'm really not liking your "trainer" too well.

I am also thinking a true "behavorist" doesn't go around with the 'my way or the highway' attitude.

I'd dump him.

stormyknight

Posted : 12/18/2006 1:46:32 PM

ORIGINAL: tashakota

Am I the only one who thinks corrections using a prong are wrong? Aren't prong collars supposed to be self-correcting? And not used for yanking on when a dog does something you don't like, like a nylon choke?

I use a prong on my malinois when going out for walks because she is so big and drivey but I never use it as a correction device (i.e. snapping it). I would be very hesitant to work with a trainer that uses it in such a way.

Oooorrr he might think "Every time I see another dog my neck hurts - I would stop looking at other dogs to avoid the pain". Just like when you get burned by the stove you dont hate other stoves in the world, you just are more careful of not to do it again to avoid the pain

My malinois is very drivey and can be dog aggressive on a leash. We tried the negative reinforcement when she got aggressive and you know what? She got worse. She would go into a stiff pose, hackles up, whining and growling at the sight of another dog. I have been told by many animal behaviorists that dogs do not generalize well - they may not make the connection between their behavior and the correction, only that they get the correction only when another dog is around, hence all dogs must be bad.

So we tried positive reinforcement and developed a "watch me" signal. Whenever another dog is around, I say "Watch me" and she looks at me (taking her concentration off of the other dog), then gets rewarded. That, along with lots of other positive reinforcement training, has made her quite dog social now. There is a great book, I am forgetting the name right now, that has lots of good tips on retraining the dog-aggressive dog.

Chuffy

Posted : 12/18/2006 2:24:14 PM

Firstly, I'd just like to say she sounds completely normal to me and I don't think you should beat yourself up or think you are a bad owner!

I don't know a great deal about prong collars - they are not widely used over here and frankly most people would be absolutely HORRIFIED if they saw you walking down the street with one on your dog. I DO NOT LIKE aversive techniques and that include prong collars. In most cases a kind approach works just as well if not better.

For instance, "correcting" the dog each time he becomes reactive does not go to the root of the problem, which is that she is not calm and comfortable around other dogs. The anxiety or hyperactivity remain, she merely learns to repress the outward signals - like growling, or lunging or whining or whatever. If a dog does something that encroaches further on her - makes her feel even more uncomfortable - eventually she wont be able to repress them any more and will react. In effect, you are creating a "time bomb" - a dog who has learnt not to give any outward signals so that you can react and prevent any unpleasantness. Am I making sense here?

Using a leash correction is IMO not the best way to train, because then the dog ALSO has to learn to respond to you and not to react to the other dog when they are not on their lead, which means he has to learn it twice. Dogs do not generalise well. Quite a lot of dogs are bright enough to figure out that "my neck hurts when I look at another dog when I am on the lead, but not when I am loose" meaning that they may be fine when out walking if they are on a lead, but still reactive when loose, or still reactive when another dog comes into their home.

A kinder approach would be to use a very smelly tasty treat she doesn't have at any other time, or a very special toy that she LOVES which she doesnlt get at any other time - whatever motivates her best.
- Have the other dog far enough away that she does not react to it and reward her well.
- Get gradually closer, but if for any reason she reacts, take her further away again and build back up, even slower this time. Modify your own actions to prodcue the desired response.
- This can be set up in dummy runs to practise, but you should do it EVERY time she sees another dog. Give them as wide a berth as you can so she remains calm and happy and you can reward her for not reacting to them but focusing on you instead. This also actually reinforces the calm state and conditions her to feel calm next time she sees another dog, but only over time and if you are consistent.
- Gradually the "critical distance" decreases. This approach changes her perception of other dogs and makes her feel more relaxed and comfortable around them. After a time she will be able to walk past them without flinching - in fact she will probably look up at you or return to you to look for the special toy or treat, but how long this takes, or whether she will ever reach a stage where she is completely reliable us dependant on how well she was socialised as a pup, how consistent you are with her and her own personality.

It's probably worth mentioning that you should reinforce your own leadership FIRST before embarking on any training, because that in itself will make her less reactive to supposed "threats" and more responsive to you. A calmer dog finds it easier to learn new things - and she is not only having to learn something new, she is also having to UNLEARN something that is already ingrained.

I think the trainer is right that she needs to learn that YOU are the rule makers and also that she needs to relax a little and be responsive to your commands, but I am highly dubious about his methods of doing this. Personally I would be very uncomfortable if he were helping me with one of my dogs and would go to someone else.

espencer

Posted : 12/18/2006 3:04:20 PM

I have use prong collars before and like i said, using it wrong is bad but when you do it right is helpful, so far any "time bomb" has exploded while using it so i think everyone here talks from their own experience

The dog does not "ALSO" has to respond to any correction, by not paying attention to the source is fine so that would be the "response" we look for

The dogs are smarter than you think, they know the owner is doing the correction, they know is NOT just a "sudden pain that appears every time by itself", they asociate that the owner does not like that he looks or growls at other dog and just like with +R you dont have to use it forever, after a while you wont need it at all anymore, while or without a leash, you dont keep using treats after the dog learned how to sit on command, after a while you dont need them anymore