Blood has been drawn twice in one week:(

    • Bronze

    Blood has been drawn twice in one week:(

    I have a Miniature Schnauzer who is 5 years old, a Siberian Husky who is a year and a half old and a Black lab who is 6 months. They all were getting along very well until a week ago. The Schnauzer and the Husky have gotten into 4 or 5 fights in the last week. One time it was over food but the other times it hasn't been. My Schnauzer has had a lot of blood drawn. I had the Schnauzer before my husband and I got married and she is attached to my hip, she is just a very devoted dog. Wherever I go she goes. She will even stop eating just to follow me upstairs. The husky has never been jealous of her before but I thought that could be the problem. I have been trying to love on each one of them equally but it hasn't helped so far. I don't know what to do. I don't want to get rid of the husky but I don't want my Schnauzer to get seriously injured either, she can't defend herself at all against the husky!!! I leave my Schnauzer out at during the day  and the others are in cages. We used to leave the Husky out but once we go the lab she started chewing things up so we had to put her back in a cage when we leave. At night the Husky and the Schnauzer both sleep with my husband and I. I just don't know what to do!!! I can't break up their fights, my husband has been able to a couple of times but he isn't always home to help!! Any advice would help!  
    • Gold Top Dog
    Both females?  ruh roh!

    Has the husky been spayed yet?

    You may have to keep them seperated.

    I think there are several threads about bitch fights posted.

    First thing I would do is to stop allowing them in your bed.

    You could also start NILIF.
    [linkhttp://www.humaneleague.com/Resources/documents/HLLCBuildingaRelationshipwithYourDog.pdf]http://www.humaneleague.com/Resources/documents/HLLCBuildingaRelationshipwithYourDog.pdf[/link]
    • Gold Top Dog
    I don't want to frighten you unnecessarily, but your Husky is at the age where dogs try to figure out where they fit in the pack.  She is drawing blood to convince the Schnauzer that she is top dog.  Unfortunately, if your Schnauzer does not capitulate, there is a significant possibility that the Husky will kill her.  Females fight differently than males, who rarely kill one another, and they don't give up.  If two bitches decide they don't like each other, this will go on until one is gone... Some owners find that they must rehome one of the dogs (usually the newer, or the one who is not getting along with the remaining members of the pack).  Or, they find that they must keep the dogs permanently separated - not easy to do in some households.  When it is done for status, and the fights accomplish a change in leader dog, you usually don't see continuing fights with blood spilled.  Spaying doesn't usually change things much, so even if these are intact females, doing that (while adviseable for other reasons) may not change the outcome.  In any case, it is certainly not fair for your old friend to be subjected to attacks continually.  I hope your hubby is prepared for the reality that these two may not be able to live together.  Keep them separated, and hire a good behaviorist to assess your situation, before this ends in heartbreak.  A predatory Husky is not something to trust with a smaller pet.
    It's fine for you to practice NILIF and sound leadership with both dogs, but it still may not be enough.  Just be prepared and keep you and the dogs safe.
    P.S. It is exactly the WRONG approach to love them equally.  Dogs don't think like that.  Owners should learn to recognize which of the dogs is the actual leader, and support that one.  It's often hard for the novice to tell, since the aggressor is not always the true dominant.  Get professional help to sort this out.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Anne (spiritdogs) has given you some good info and advice.  The situation is beyond a point where NILIF will either cure it or prevent it from happening.  Two females with a history of fighting will probably continue fighting until one of them is gone. 

    Keep the two of them physically separated, even under supervision they may send signals that you don't see-which lead to a fight.  Before thesituation progresses any further you may want to start looking for a new home for one of the two.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Hi there,

    There's been some very good advice offered - I think you DO need to provide sound leadership to both dogs but still be extra vigilant and keep them seperated.  Please stop allowing them to sleep in your bed.  Please also discourage either dog from becoming hyper-attached to you or oyour husband.  Discourgae them from following you around everywhere from room to room and give them some "alone time."

    I disagree that you are wrong to love both equally.  It is true that there is a "pecking order" but by favouring one dog over another you could actually exacerbate the problem by confusing the issue further.  I'd urge you to find a reputable behaviourist, perhaps on referral by your vet, to help you to sole this issue.  Please take great care who you choose to help you with this problem - many "trainers" are unscrupulous or simply incompetent and their advice could be disastrous!

    Please do not:

    - Take their food bowl away while they are eating
    - Smack, shout or snarl at them
    - Pin them down on their side or back

    If ANY trainer advises you to do any of these things, run a mile and dont look back!

    Keep us posted how you get on.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Chuffy

    Hi there,

    There's been some very good advice offered - I think you DO need to provide sound leadership to both dogs but still be extra vigilant and keep them seperated.  Please stop allowing them to sleep in your bed.  Please also discourage either dog from becoming hyper-attached to you or oyour husband.  Discourgae them from following you around everywhere from room to room and give them some "alone time."

    I disagree that you are wrong to love both equally.  It is true that there is a "pecking order" but by favouring one dog over another you could actually exacerbate the problem by confusing the issue further.  I'd urge you to find a reputable behaviourist, perhaps on referral by your vet, to help you to sole this issue.  Please take great care who you choose to help you with this problem - many "trainers" are unscrupulous or simply incompetent and their advice could be disastrous!

    Please do not:

    - Take their food bowl away while they are eating
    - Smack, shout or snarl at them
    - Pin them down on their side or back

    If ANY trainer advises you to do any of these things, run a mile and dont look back!

    Keep us posted how you get on.


    No one told this poster not to love her dogs equally - just to clarify, the point is that she cannot favor the more subordinate dog over the more dominant one.   This keeps the argument between the dogs happening.  The reason she was told to see a qualified behaviorist was to avoid the problems with "unscrupulous" trainers (or, if you prefer, "uninformed" or "undereducated").  I agree that aggression never cures aggression.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Sorry - I was referring to the PS "It is exactly the wrong approach to love them equally".  What I meant was, its better to love them equally (or to put it another way, show them equal love and affection on equal terms) than favour the one dog over the other.  I do have my doubts that favouring the dominant one would help the situation, and there is a strong possibility this approach could make it worse by confusing the issue. 
     
    For instance, I could see the logic if it were two littermates of the same sex reaching adolescence where the aim was to "widen the gap" between the two (although even then I'm a bit dubious); but these two dogs are very different in age, size and type.  I think the focus on hierarchy should be ensuring that the humans are at the top, rather than which dog is above the other.  This is itself should calm the issue because the husky is not "jockeying for pole position", but only for a lesser position in the pack, albeit higher than the schnauzer.  I do think that the mere presence of a calm and convincing authority figure would in itself help to prevent/diffuse disputes.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Chuffy,
     
    I understand where you are coming from but I do not agree with your position.  Using a wolf pack model, which is the general consensus amongst professionals, special treatment or favors cannot be bestowed upon a dog of lesser ranking without creating problems for that animal.  The pack has to have a pecking order if it is to survive in the wild, and domestic canids respond better to that paradigm than they respond to an artificial ranking (all dogs are equal) which we, the human pack leaders assign.
    • Gold Top Dog
    For what it's worth, the only fight in my house that actually resulted in an injury happened because my husband tried to make the dogs share a toy when one of them wanted to horde it.

    We don't make the dogs share anymore. If Conrad wants to butt in on what Marlowe's doing and take something, he can. He's the senior dog, it's his perogative. Neither can take anything from us, but Conrad can take from Marlowe with impunity. Its the main way he enforces his position and that's fine. The dogs have their own internal pecking order, seperate from the humans. We are Like Gods Unto Them, but as dogs they have the alpha and the subordinate positions mapped out and they'd get pretty confused if the Household Gods started to shake that up.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I disagree that you are wrong to love both equally. It is true that there is a "pecking order" but by favouring one dog over another you could actually exacerbate the problem by confusing the issue further.

     
    I haven't read everything there is on this specific issue, but most of  what I have indicates that we (humans) not try to play a part in establishing a pecking order, if that's what we want to call it.  The behaviorist we met with for our 2, also advised against it.  I think it's especially dangerous to guide anyone to this approach because not everyone (including me) is accurate in determining who is/or should be the alpha.  More important is establishing that the human is the true leader and that's why I think NLIF really can help in these situations.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I think you misunderstand me - I'm not disagreeing with you that in the wild is a strict order in a pack which is adhered to.  Of course one dog is above the other - but my point is that I don't believe the issue here is which one that is.  I also believe (quite strongly) that this is not something for the owner to try to decide, judge or assign.  I think that the issue is that there is not a strong enough human presence within the pack providing consistent leadership and that introducing such a ;presence would help the situation immensely - I think THAT is where the emphasis should be.
     
    Speaking personally - we don't make our dogs share anything.  We don't try to force them to be equal by bestowing any favours on the "underdog" (not sure if thats what you meant, might have misunderstood it)  Neither dog is favoured over the other - there are NO "special favours".  We assert ourselves at the top and, as "alpha" quickly diffuse disputes and refuse to tolerate aggression.  I think houndlove summed it up nicely - they get confused when we "shake things up" and by trying to define the canine hierarchy for them that's precisely what we can end up doing.
     
    We're probably just going to have to agree to disagree so I'm not saying anymore on this one.
    • Gold Top Dog
    It think it best to ignore the dog heirarchy and let them settle it among themselves-- as long as blood isn't being drawn. Pack squabbles are mostly about lots of noise, nothing else. You can't "love" all your dogs equally anyway. If you have an older dog who is well-trained and gets exhausted after 20 minutes of exercise and prefers to lie quietly on your feet, and a younger dog who needs several training sessions a day plus over an hour of exercise, trying to treat them equally won't meet either of their needs. 
     It is a good idea to ask dogs to perform tasks in order to get treats, food, attention, toys. First dog to sit gets the first treat-- this, to dogs, is quite clear: it has nothing to do with their pack structure, and all about how quickly they sit. And the human doesn't have to guess who is dominant.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

    It think it best to ignore the dog heirarchy and let them settle it among themselves-- as long as blood isn't being drawn.

     
    Well the subject of the topic says they already drawn blood and i believe that happens because you let them "work it out", sometimes niether of them is gonna give up to the other and then you end up with years of fighting, since we dont know if they are gonna give up or not then is better to avoid any fight from the beginning
     
    ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
     
    You can't "love" all your dogs equally anyway. If you have an older dog who is well-trained and gets exhausted after 20 minutes of exercise and prefers to lie quietly on your feet, and a younger dog who needs several training sessions a day plus over an hour of exercise, trying to treat them equally won't meet either of their needs.
     
     
    Totally far from the truth, "love equally" has nothing to do here (is like saying you cant love your children equally and you need to love one more than the other) maybe you meant "you cant excersice all the dogs the same", different breeds have different energies, some need more excersice than others but that has nothing to do with love
    • Gold Top Dog
    espencer--this is different from a situation where, for instance, my "queenie" dog tells the other she wants the preferred bed. I'm not always in the room when she does that and yet I can walk in and she has her spot. Don't ask me how she does it. They don't fight--she just takes what she thinks she can and should. And she's very funny about it, too. She uses no violence to get her way.
     
    This husky is abusing this little dog and merely "letting it go" won't help now, and most of the posters know this, of course.
    • Gold Top Dog
    They don't fight--she just takes what she thinks she can and should. And she's very funny about it, too. She uses no violence to get her way.

     
    yeah, my alpha bitch is the same way. Rules the household with no violence whatsoever.  But that's a settled pack situation. Usually fights only occur when the pack heirarchy is changing and some of the pack members object to the change-- often in response to a younger dog becoming an adult, as we see in the OP's situation.
     
    In the OP's situation the husky has decided to take over the pack, and the schnauzer is resisting. The husky is going to kill the schnauzer sometime in the near future unless kept away from the schnauzer. I don't think there is anything the owner can do except work to keep the schnauzer safe. When bitches fight, they fight seriously.