Natural dog training - pushing

ron2

I think I can see the value of the push exercise in that it allows the human to control and guide the amount of tension and release in graduated steps and to allow the confidence to build.

Yes, that would be one way of looking at it. But just relating the exercise to confidence issues only prevents people who see their dogs as having "too much confidence," for example, from giving their dogs the benefit of the exercise. (I think people usually think this way because they've been taught that "dominance" is an innate, genetic behavioral trait, not a symptom of anxiety, which is what it really is). And the thing is, in that context, the pushing exercise actually reduces "confidence" in dogs who have "too much" of it!

LCK 

Lee Charles Kelley

The pushing exercise teaches the dog how to deal with shifts in energy that would normally throw him off-balance. [...] As usual I think it's best to take this down to its barest essentials: how the dog handles changes in the continuous flow of energy between himself and the environment.

Love it! Thank you for this. I knew "building confidence" wasn't all there was to it because it also teaches them to deal with stuff - how's that for technical?

Well, I don't know, the way I see it, they can deal with stuff better because they've had a confidence and trust booster.

Mmm, stuff.

I guess it's true that if you say it's just about confidence then people who think they have an over-confident dog will figure it's not applicable to them. But really, I reckon any fearful or aggressive behaviour in a dog is most probably a result of a lack of confidence in themselves and the situation. When Penny was playing at top dog, she was a control freak and would try to control everything that the other dogs did. She used aggression to do that, but I always thought that she was so concerned with controlling the actions of her canine living companions because she was terrified deep down that they would do things to her that she would be helpless to do anything about. So I think the only option open to her was to keep an iron grip on the behaviour of the other dog and try to control them so they couldn't do things to her that were scary or she didn't like. She was always feeling intimidated. After the fiasco with Chloe, which happened when she was still quite young, she just got worse. She seemed sure that if she didn't control the other dog she lived with, they would suddenly decide to kill her like Chloe had (although I'm pretty sure her controlling behaviour contributed to Chloe wanting to kill her).

Anyway, the important thing is, she improved drastically when my housemate's dog very quickly and probably mostly painlessly overpowered her physically, but then decided she was his best friend and never again so much as raised a lip at her. Previously, Penny had got herself locked in arguments with dogs her physical equal, and the arguments went for longer and there was often no clear resolution, so they would come up again and again. Jill did the same thing to her when Penny went to live with my parents, and Penny improved again. I guess she learnt that the tension she feared wasn't as bad as she feared it would be, and the other dog wouldn't automatically try to kill her if she couldn't control their behaviour. I've got high hopes for her ability to deal with the next dog I bring into the family, but I understand her fear a lot better, now, as well.

Anyway, that story is not as off-topic as it sounds, because Penny is not naturally a controlling dog. In fact, quite the opposite, she loves to have decisions made for her, or suggestions to tell her what she could do. Her controlling and pushy behaviour was not a result of over confidence like it appeared, but fear. And what helped her drop her pushy behaviour was discovering that her fear was unfounded, I guess. I'm endlessly grateful to my housemate's dog for so easily helping her through that fear just by being the exact kind of dog she needed to spend time with, while I had been standing helplessly on the sidelines for several years, seeing her anxious behaviour but not knowing what to do for her to help her through it all. I think had I known about the pushing then, it probably would have helped her quite a lot by improving her confidence and trust in me. I think what my housemate's dog, and then Jill, did was much like the pushing exercise. It put her for a moment where she was afraid to go, but it wasn't as scary as she thought it was, and afterwards the other dog was not trying to kill her, but actually better friends with her than ever. Fortunately, she's confident and social enough that she wasn't frightened by the brief conflict enough to have missed the fact that it all wasn't as scary as she thought it was. I might have been in trouble letting the dogs sort it out if she'd been a bit more timid or a bit less social.

FourIsCompany

I think I understand what you mean here. I don't think dogs look at us and see bunny ears superimposed on our heads. But one of the tenets of NDT (agree with it or not) is that dogs (from their ancestors) look at the world around them in terms of their various drives. They funnel everything in through their context, which is largely formed by their prey drive, especially as regards other animals (of which we are one). So, whenever he connects with another animal, the question arises, "Is this prey or predator"? And because of our unique relationship with the dog, the answer to that question is "Both."

And I can agree with all but the last, as I'm not sure how that fits in. Yes, as a predator, the dog must assess who is prey and who is predator. And an abused dog might see humans as a predator, or prey that is too large to deal with, assuming that's how they actually view the world, in entirety. That is, I agree to the predatory history of dogs. Coyotes are both hunters and scavengers. Sometimes, though not as a general rule, coyotes will pack up to hunt. And I have seen dogs do that, too. The last fight Shadow was in, with two pekinese who's owners only own a house but the dogs own a quarter acre from running free. We crossed their territory, which includes the intersection of Mayo and Ricketts. And they circled and the braver one charged. And Shadow grabbed him by the neck and shook him like a rag doll. When Shadow let go to get a better grip, the other dog took off for home, showing some wisdom. The other dog followed the other one home.

And, in all, I'm not discounting the work out of hand and I can see some value in it. Or maybe, it's the treats involved. And the fact that the exercise is the antithesis of blocking in traditional styles. In traditional style, blocking is so that the dog does not cross a boundary. In this exercise, the dog must cross to be successful.

Oh, Ron, I meant to say something about that predator prey thing.

While I wouldn't necessarily say dogs see humans as predator one moment and prey the next, I do think there are certain things about humans that make us seem a bit scary to dogs, and yet, we do dole out the food and give them loving, so they also want to be with us.

Ideally to me at least, my dog would never be frightened of me, but, well, I just don't think you can go through life with an animal and never do something they find frightening. With Penny, she doesn't seem to like playing with people. She doesn't like getting that close to them when there's play excitement in the air. She's happy to express her excitement by running, but she runs away from the people more often than not. And if people try to engage her in play, she often backs up and her excited state just melts away. Does it melt away because she sees us as predators? I highly doubt it, but the fact is, she acts as though we are a predator, albeit, not a very frightening one. She acts to put space between us and dissipate the level of excitement that she is suddenly finding uncomfortable. She acts the way any nervous prey animal does, keeping the space between them and the potential predator large, but not running at this stage. This is just me, but I think it's less about how they see the world and more about how they're behaving. That's how I approach it because that's how I was taught to approach it and it makes sense to me.

So from the other side, when a dog wants to chase you or run to you, I don't think of it so much as the dog seeing you as prey, but more the dog feels drawn to you, wants to close the gap between you, being the exact opposite of the nervousness displayed when they're not entirely comfortable and want to keep distance between you both. Do they want to run to you because you are prey? For Penny at least, I highly doubt it, but there is a social attraction there. I'm fun to be with, I might run with her, which is good fun and not tension-building, I might get down on the ground and pour love and affection on her, which feels great as well.... I might even feed her. But then, should I turn and face her, tense my body, crouch, suddenly I'm not as attractive as I was a moment ago. I look like I'm going to confont her. I look like I'm ready to do something serious, and she's in my focus. So does she suddenly think I'm a moose ready to gore her? Well, probably not, but she slows up and stops with still a large gap between us and waits warily to see what I'll do next.

This is the kind of interaction I think of when we talk about a dog seeing us as predator and prey. I personally don't think the dog certainly does see us as predator one moment, then prey the next. I just think of it as the play of pressure and intent that all animals learn. Kit is particularly sensitive to it, being an animal that needs to know when to bolt to save themselves from being dinner. When he's out of the cage, he rarely lets anyone touch him, but it's easy enough to move him around the house and herd him back to his cage just by keeping on the edge of his comfort zone. If you stay on the edge, the pressure is always there, but it doesn't push him so much that he breaks and bolts. That's important.

When a dog is in attraction, or in NDT context, predator mode, there is no comfort zone. There is no bubble that will put pressure on them when the object of their focus (the human) gets close. However, that bubble can appear in an instant the moment the person turns to face them, even if all they do is make eye contact out of the corner of their eye. Bam, dog is suddenly in prey mode, in the NDT context. Now, this doesn't happen with all dogs, or in every situation like this, but if it does happen, or happens regularly, that's where I'd want to start with the pushing exercise. The way I see it, the pushing exercise would diminish that comfort zone bubble, and also make it less likely to pop up when the dog is coming towards you. Or maybe it does still pop up, but the dog doesn't take it as seriously. I'm not sure. 

corvus

Oh, Ron, I meant to say something about that predator prey thing.

While I wouldn't necessarily say dogs see humans as predator one moment and prey the next, I do think there are certain things about humans that make us seem a bit scary to dogs, and yet, we do dole out the food and give them loving, so they also want to be with us.

I can agree to that, too. How many times have we complained, and I have seen it with my own eyes, when a clueless human comes tramping up head on with a hand over the dog's head and the dog shy's away? Because those are threatening moves to the dog. Moves of a beast that is predatory to them or means something not good.

Lee Charles Kelley

But just relating the exercise to confidence issues only prevents people who see their dogs as having "too much confidence," for example, from giving their dogs the benefit of the exercise. (I think people usually think this way because they've been taught that "dominance" is an innate, genetic behavioral trait, not a symptom of anxiety, which is what it really is).

And this I can agree with. Much of what people think is dominance is not that but, indeed, a symptom of anxiety.

And just now, I read the another part of the blog and found that I had something in common with the natural dog training, which I had previously said I would not want to partake in. How's that for irony? Just as the push exercise is antitethical to blocking in dominance training. You must let the dog pust past the barrier to have better connection, rather than setting a boundary and punishing for pushing past it.

Specifically, the tug game, which I have done since day one. The only time I "win" is when Shadow releases on purpose. And he will. He's offering me the talisman, so to speak. But the other times, he wins. When he gives a little growl, I let go. And I never thought of that as reinforcing aggression. I felt I was limiting the intensity. Plus, I can get the object any time by having the greater reward. And yes, he might be excited by goings-on and I have tossed the kong so that he can release the "go and get it" thing. Which is allowing him to use prey drive to relieve whatever tension, for lack of a better word, arises from excitement. And most times, I have not used treats. I will tell him, "I'm gonna get that thing" but it is in an easy tone, which would have the same tone as "good boy". As for safety, I have been tooth-grazed a number of times. I say "ouch" under my breath and we move on. It comes from zigging or zagging at the same time and was never an intentional strike. Just like the once or twice I have thrown the kong, attempting to aim ahead of him while he is running and bean him right in the side of the muzzle. No harm, no foul, play continues. But I didn't see it as specifically giving him confidence in other things, such as cranky dogs in public. That came about by reducing his zone of reactivity down to near proximity by rewarding calm behavior, obedience, and focus in a variety of situations. And being ready for the odd time or two when another dog got snippy and he did nothing and I rewarded that. As in, I had some meat in a ziplock bag and the clicker dangling from my wrist. Another dog charged and he did nothing and I rewarded that behavior of not getting in a snit himself.

As for the dog winning, that's usually a given, especially with a big dog. I have dragged him around in the game of tug, which he doesn't mind. He is used to playing hard. And it's always been a part of play, rather than a training exercise. To give you an idea of the physicality, Shadow is 26 inches to the shoulders, 65 lbs., and can run over 30 mph. I am 6' 6'', 253 lbs, and I can butterfly 152 lbs. I am one of the few people who can play as hard as he does.

By the way, I've cut my hair since then. But you never know, I may grow it back out.

But I am starting to get the gist of your ideas. At least, in my own terms.

Just popping in to leave this video. I taught DH how to do it, then he tried it with Jaia to show the beginning stages because I've never done it with Jaia. Then we moved on to B'asia, who has been doing it for a week. I found it interesting to see how hard she actually pushes from the observer's perspective, No wonder it's so hard to hold her back! LOL Then at the end we temper with "easy". DH repeats commands. It's a habit I have tried to break him of, to no avail... Any suggestions? LOL

Anyway, here's some "Pushing"...  

ron2

To give you an idea of the physicality, Shadow is 26 inches to the shoulders,

Wow, that is super tall for a Husky......even for a Lab......

snownose

ron2

To give you an idea of the physicality, Shadow is 26 inches to the shoulders,

 

Wow, that is super tall for a Husky......even for a Lab......

Wow he is tall.  River is 28.5 at his withers and all his lab friends are much smaller in comparision and his only Husky friend is around 23inches we don't know any other Huskies.  Here is River and his best friend Jesse.

snownose

Wow, that is super tall for a Husky......even for a Lab......

 One of my 4H kids had a husky that was at least 26", if not a bit over. BIG, lanky, skinny dog that he was. I have seen some great big labs too.

FourIsCompany

Anyway, here's some "Pushing"...  

Hi. I just got a chance to look at the video. If you want my input I'd say your husband isn't doing it quite right with Jaia. He's putting his food hand against Jaia's throat, instead of the dog's chest.

He's doing it much better with B'asia, though he's still putting his hand a little to high in terms of how I like to do it and how I think it should be done. And B'asia is clearly very good at this. She's pushing pretty hard! However, you can amp it up even further from what I'm seeing on the tape. I don't know if she pushes harder with you than with your husband, but you really want to build it to the point where she's up on her back legs, she's pushing so hard to get that food. That extra oomph will really make a difference.

I hope this helps.

LCK

PS: I didn't see anything wrong with the way your husband does the "Easy..." exercise. In my view it does no harm to repeat certain "commands" like this one. For the sit or down, yes; because that's more a matter of asking a dog to produce a very specific behavior. It should be "Sit!" and the dog sits. Here's you're just asking for the dog to do a behavior in a certain way.
 

corvus

So from the other side, when a dog wants to chase you or run to you, I don't think of it so much as the dog seeing you as prey, but more the dog feels drawn to you, wants to close the gap between you, being the exact opposite of the nervousness displayed when they're not entirely comfortable and want to keep distance between you both. Do they want to run to you because you are prey?

It's not that the dog "sees" you as prey, but that prey energy is attractive to them. They feel drawn to it. If you think of how dogs play with one another, when one dog takes off and another gives chase, even though it looks very much like a hunt in some ways, there's no indication that the dog actually thinks his play partner is a deer or rabbit (sorry, Kit). What causes the behavior is the energy exchange, which is based on something that taps very deeply into the dog's predatory nature.

As for being the predator with your dog, sometimes that can be helpful, under very controlled circumstances. I described how I do this with some dogs who have fear aggression issues, for example. I throw a toy so that the dog ends up about 50 ft away or so. But instead of giving her an indicator that I want her to bring it back to me, I put my hands up in he air, next to my head, crouch a little, and start stalking her, the way you pretend to be Frankenstein with a kid on Halloween. I don't want her to get frightened to the point that she'll bolt into the woods (or worse yet, traffic). What I want her to do is give me some tiny bit of what a wolf would exhibit in his behavior when a moose turns and brandishes his antlers at him, which for the wolf is to kind of dig in and stand his ground a little. Certainly on one level, when the wolf digs in, it might be in preparation for making a possible escape. But if there's a flicker of predatory energy in the dog's stance, or in her eyes when I "Frankenstein her," I immediately freeze, and maybe even take a step back as if I'm scared. Now I'm the prey animal again (the attractor) and the dog will almost always come racing toward me. So I run away, teasing her with a second toy. (I want her to release her energy through biting something other than me or my clothes.)

The dog has now overcome an elemental hurdle in our relationship, and hopefully in her relationship with humans in general. (Not that she's "generalizing" the results of the "Frankenstein game" to all humans in general but that her energy is more centered now.)

And you're right, it's like the pushing exercise in a way because you're tweaking the dog's insecurities or stimulating her fear blockages, and helping her work past them in a way that makes her feel very powerful. And the way I look at is that, like in martial arts, the more power you feel you have, the less likely you are to ever need to use it.

LCK

Lee Charles Kelley

And the way I look at is that, like in martial arts, the more power you feel you have, the less likely you are to ever need to use it.

I am familiar with this concept. I have studied and practiced various styles of hand-to-hand combat since 1977. And I have a few skills left. I learned to discard what is superfluous and retain what is truly necessary. And I hate fighting, so I armed myself with the ability to fight. And I have talked myself out more fights than I have been in. But I think we might throwing some anthro in here. I'm not busting you on it. But it does seen inescapable. We can't help it as we describe emotion, confidence, even our models of energy flow.

To borrow from the non-linear theory, the more social skills a dog has, the bigger fitness hill he or she is sitting on, making it harder for the emotional turbulence of the water to rise up and cause an effect. But even that supposes a human trait "peace through superior firepower."

I have one other misgiving with this method. The physical skill is to push past resistance to get food. As it stands right now, I give Shadow bits of meat from my plate. And he has to sit or down for it and he is not allowed to nose in, either. And only from me. He gets nothing from DW's plate. And when we had friends over for Labor Day, I explained to them that he is not to get food from anyone else's plate. Otherwise, he will generalize that he can do so from anyone. And he still tries with DW once in a while. Anyway, I do not want him thinking that the game of pushing past my physical barrier for food, especially at dinner time is an acceptable behavior. He may not differentiate the two scenarios. Dogs do what works, even if that requires generalization, whether humans think they can generalize or not. At some basic level, it is about securing or working to get resources.

snownose

Wow, that is super tall for a Husky......even for a Lab......

Yes it is. DW is 5' 5 1/2" and when Shadow would rise up, he could place his paws on her shoulders.

26 inches is the upper range for male Sibes and I believe Malamutes can get an inch or two bigger. Shadow is taller than most Labs I've seen though there have been some big Labs. Especially the few Yellows I have seen around here. Some a few inches taller than him and weighing over 100 lbs, all of it muscle. Shadow weighs 65 lbs and his lighter weight is due to his bone density being similar to that of a Husky, rather than a Lab. The latter part I got from our vet.

I'm about the only one who can handle Shadow being a lap dog.