Natural dog training - pushing

    • Gold Top Dog

    Great video.

    B'asia rocks. And J'aia is too cool for words. And thanks for sharing your dog life with us.

    I even tried it myself, just now. Just to see what would happen. It doesn't involve punishment, that I can see. It does involve reinforcement. Just to see what would happen.

    No luck. I have "ruined" Shadow with clicks and brisket and pork and steak and cheapie treats for doing as I ask. Initiating the push seemed like molding and that's exactly what happened. I give a little push on the front of his chest and he sits. So, I figured, what the heck, I will work on some other stuff. The neighbor diagonal to us with the Border Collies and Heeler mix are here, and the family is out in the yard visiting, no doubt, for Easter weekend. The dogs are excited and barking and everything is quite distracting and Shadow is walking in heel, nose at my hand.

    I'm not trying to ramp up his prey drive, specifically. He has plenty of it. If a squirrel is able to get into the yard, he will go after it. And mice, too. Actually, around here, it's probably cotton rats. They look like mice. There are times when I do not impede his prey drive, and other times I do, even if the reward is to return to the hunt. Somewhat classical, in that hearing me is part of the universe, and part reward in that hearing results in getting to do more of what he wants (Premack Principle.)

    Then again, he's not afraid of me, nor does he seem to view me as prey, though I understand that the desire of this natural dog training system is to have the dog follow you and return to you with the same intensity that he goes after prey. In my method and in the push method, one commonality is that a treat is involved. In my method, treats are hidden until given, as opposed to dangling it like bait, or luring. Which is not bad. I started out with corrections and lure-and-reward. If the object of chasing prey is to kill and eat, I may have eliminated the need to kill and simply provide the opportunity to eat. When it comes to fetch, it's almost a natural tendency, as it were, for the dog to drop the object in order to eat the treat. I can't help but wonder if this exercise works well on dogs that generalize easily. In which case, does it work better on older dogs than younger dogs, the latter who don't have much experience generalizing? And back to the idea of prey drive being necessary to hunt, kill, and eat - if I provide the food, have I not worked with his prey drive, so to speak, which involves work to get food? That is, the obedience is part of the sublimated prey drive and some resource guarding thrown in to make sure the resources stay secure?

    And maybe it's just me, a stick in the mud. I have a nasty habit of expecting horses when I hear hoofbeats. I am trying to understand this and I keep coming back to the same principles I have used. Which seems to limit my view. I see the exercise as leading the dog with a treat. And that getting that treat helps to overcome the dog's inhibitions to approaching you and helps the dog to see that return to you, above all else, whether that else be your resistance or other prey, is rewarding above all else.

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    ron2
    I give a little push on the front of his chest and he sits.

     

    Just a note on this. You're not supposed to push on the dog's chest (as I understand it). You're left hand creates a barrier and the dog pushes against you. You pull back with your right hand. That may seem a subtle difference, but I think it's important. And it took several sessions before I even allowed pressure. I just barely touched her the first time. I think you may have moved too fast. You shouldn't be pushing the dog, he should be pushing you. But at least you gave it a try. (If you want to try it again, read the instructions from both links on page one before you attempt it.) I would advise this exercise for Shadow because of his issues at the vet. That's definitely a "stress" situation that he doesn't know how to deal with. On a very fundamental level, that's what this is about. Dealing with emotional stress. Not increasing prey drive. Dealing with it.

    I've been doing it with B'asia at mealtime with some good food and even some kibble. She likes the exercise now (she didn't at first) and all the other dogs sit around and watch B'asia push, knowing it's the last thing that happens before mealtime. LOL  

    Your last paragraph shows that you at least partially understand the exercise the same way I do. So there's hope. LOL  Thanks for watching. Smile

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany
    Your last paragraph shows that you at least partially understand the exercise the same way I do

    And thank you for understanding my post in the manner that I meant it. Not always easy to do.

    I don't mind trying to understand new things or things that seemed alien to me. Doing so brought me to where I am. Or, at least what I thought was alien was actually quite logical and mathematical.

    And I agree that the vet visit is a stress that he doesn't deal with well. While we haven't progressed much on the actual hands-on and vacc experience, I have gotten him to walk into the exam room (nothing happening) as opposed to before when I would have to drag him in.

    And I agree that at best, any work one does is in helping the dog to express or deal with situations, as opposed to specifically increasing a drive.

    ETA:

    I just re-read the directions. It seems that part of the exercise is acclimating or conditioning the dog to not fear the tension. That is, why he may feel tension, it need not be a bad thing, so to speak. And that coming to you and getting the treat assuages the tension.

    In which case, while I might eventually succeed in getting a push out of him, I would still be expecting him to generalize that pushing past the initial tension or inhibition could be applied to approaching the vet. As of yet, though I think dogs can generalize, I don't assume that he will generalize pushing past my hand with not fearing the tension or apprehension he has at the vet, though it could happen. And some things I haven't been able to fix, as they are so rare and not really part of our lifestyle. To whit, his anal-sac-releasing fear of kennels. In my muddled human thinking, this is a result of his first experiences of life being in a kennel in a pet store, waiting to be bought in a scary place full of dubious things. Taken away from his momma and dumped in a cage to be manhandled by whomever with all kinds of weird sounds going on, etc.

    And maybe we're just using two different methods of reconditioning. Though it would be great to have a one-stop solution. I don't normally have time to go to the vet just to work on re-conditioning, which is why I have been so pleased with the clicker progress. Even now, I am working 10 hour days Mon - Thur, and 8 hour days Friday and Saturday. And the vet has Sunday off to be with his family and go to church.

    But I do agree that the negation of fear in a situation is about having confidence in that situation, that nothing bad will happen.

    • Gold Top Dog

    ron2
    I don't assume that he will generalize pushing past my hand with not fearing the tension or apprehension he has at the vet, though it could happen.

     

    It's not going to be a conscious thing for him. He would just have that physical memory and emotional experience. I don't expect him to consciously think or remember "pushing" and generalize that feeling to the vet. I think it would happen without conscious thought.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    ron2

    But I do agree that the negation of fear in a situation is about having confidence in that situation, that nothing bad will happen.

     

    Ah, see that is pretty much where I see the potential benefits in this method. As I have been reasoning it in my muddled human brain, pushing against a human - large and sometimes unpredictable provider of all good things (and often depriver of good things) - is a slightly scary thing for a dog. I would expect many dogs to be uncomfortable with this at first, and not want to push against a person. But by overcoming that initial tension in baby steps so that the dog doesn't ever feel very stressed, they find themselves in a place where something that was a bit worriesome turned out to be really good fun and rewarding, and also the person turned out to be fine with the pushing. The way I see it, all those things combined increases the dog's confidence both in their person and themselves, and the next time they feel a bit anxious, they've already learnt that it's not always a bad thing and can actually make them feel good. Added to that, they're more confident of you, and so if you're with them they might be more likely to look to you and trust your cues.

    Essentially, I'm imagining they simply don't find anxiety to be as stressful anymore, rather than generalising that, say, pushing is a release of tension in the yard, in the vet clinic, in front of barking dogs and so on. Or more to the point, I guess, overcoming the slight tension was very rewarding and so increased the dog's confidence. Perhaps by overcoing the slight tension, you actually raise the bar on anxiety somewhat, so that it takes a more stressful situation than before to even make them anxious in the first place. I'm looking at this as being about tension and confidence rather than pushing itself. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany

    ron2
    I don't assume that he will generalize pushing past my hand with not fearing the tension or apprehension he has at the vet, though it could happen.

     

    It's not going to be a conscious thing for him. He would just have that physical memory and emotional experience. I don't expect him to consciously think or remember "pushing" and generalize that feeling to the vet. I think it would happen without conscious thought.

    This exercise still has me puzzled and think I have to find my own way to the understanding.  I picked up a new foster, a young tiny lab mix name Pollyanna.  This dog doesn't seem to trust anything.  She is very afraid of everything and reacts by running away, submitting, and in one case bit a person.  In fairness to the dog, the bite occurred while she was being transferred from two transport drivers.  Pollyanna is very reactive to the pull of a leash and went wild when pressure was applied to the neck.  The two drivers rolled and pinned her and PollyAnna snap and broke skin.  She was isolated for 10 days for a rabbies watch and a bite report was submitted to the state.  She then came to me.

    Pollyanna immediately took to the Danes and one would consider her a velcro dog to them.  She keeps her distance from me and runs away if I approach.  During treat snack time where I give treats to the dogs all at the same time. Pollyanna is at a distance but wants her snack.  She squeezes in between the Great Danes, takes her snack and runs away.  In these first few days I am going to ignore her and let her get comfortable to the house routines on her own.  She looks at the Great Danes as her security so the Danes are my bridge for her to get comfortable with me.  She does allow me to pet her but I have to pet a Dane first and then she comes for her pet.  She is an odd thing because as I go about my business and ignore her, she reacts by soft barking and playing bowing to me.  When I give her my attention she runs away and hides behind a Great Dane.  I pet the Great Dane and then she lets me pet her. 

    Anyway, some of the requirements of the exercise exist with this dog and are beyond my control.  The dogs is mildly emaciated and she has a starving state of mind.  There is a lot of tension in this dog and the tension is generalized by practically everything.  There is no drive or reward strong enough that would cause no hesitation in her.  So during feeding time this morning, I put her food dish down with one hand and she wanted her food but would not come near.  I petted a Great Dane and she came to me for her pet.  I petted her and then she came forward to the food dish.  With out touching her I put my arm between the food and her and Pollyanna retreated.  I did this twice with all the while a Great Dane beside me.  For the third time, I did not extend my arm between the Pollyanna and the food dish.  She ate.  I hope I am not messing things up by this.  By closely watching this dog and how she reacts to my movements, I have got to build trust in this dog.  I am seeing that this exercise may just help in doing that.

    • Gold Top Dog

    What an interesting thread. Kord is like B'asia, he is not into cuddles, snuggles and is highly suspicious of people, other dogs are a bottom of my list worry, cats, well inside he is great, outside they are fair game, along with the birds and squirrels. Vets are his demon. He has this personal space around him that no one may enter but us, and he is pretty down right stubborn about it.

    I am willing to tolerate some of it based on breed and life experiences, I do not love all his behaviors.I love using his prey drive, which is high, he loves a good chase, frisbee's are his love, balls next then the flirt pole. And while I can fix some things, my biggest problem is the door and territorial aggression.

    He is much better than he was a year ago, once your in the house, yard, car, your deemed safe, I can say that he is exceptional when it comes to that, he will sit, down, stay or crate at anyones command, even a child's. The hard part for me, is getting him to settle down when they approach and enter.

    I have used his prey drive and love of chase to get some desired actions. He knows bring and drop it and does both willingly. He learned very early on that the only way he was going to get a toy tossed was to bring it and drop it, and by that I mean in my hands or at my feet. I do not retrieve, unless I'm dumb enough to toss it out of the yard. Here is a short video of my husband working him with 3 frisbee's:

    http://s92.photobucket.com/albums/l21/Truleyy/?action=view¤t=Catch.flv

    But...yes there is always a but....when it comes to chew bones it was a different story, when he was a pup we played trade and he was willing, but as he got older and got bigger bones I would leave him be and I noticed a strange behavior, when ever I gave him a new one and he saw us approach, he would grab it and walk the other way or go somewhere else. I have no clue why, I never took them away from him without an exchange. After a bit I just decide that he was afraid I would for some strange off the wall I made a mistake somewhere and it stuck reason. I worked on that and can say now that he no longer grabs and runs and will even bring it to me to admire in all it's chewed glory. Or to save it from the demon kitten should the need arise.

    So anyhoo, I wonder if I tried this a bit if I could stop some of his I am gonna eat you all up attitude when someone comes to my door or walks past my house? I am game for trying new stuff, I do know how to use his prey drive for some behavior, but for that one, no way.

    Sorry for rambling!

    • Gold Top Dog

    corvus
    Perhaps by overcoing the slight tension, you actually raise the bar on anxiety somewhat, so that it takes a more stressful situation than before to even make them anxious in the first place. I'm looking at this as being about tension and confidence rather than pushing itself. 

    That's the phrase I was looking for. And Carla's reply was great, too. And so was DPU's.

    The value of the exercise is not so much about releasing the prey drive. It's about building confidence in the presence of tension. Most anyone can agree that a confident dog in a tense situation is less likely to respond by means of a fear reaction, i.e., less likely to bite, less likely to want to run away. Any advantage to the prey drive comes from the building of confidence.

    With Carla's reply, I can see where, if possible, the emotion of successfully handling the stress or tension becomes a universal emotional state, akin to or having the appearance of generalization, though, with deference to LCK, it is not necessarily generalization and with deference to myself, perhaps we attach an inaccurate meaning to the word generalization.

    And with DPU's situation with Pollyanna, I agree it is quite dicey to use the hunger for food with an emaciated dog. And kudos to him for even thinking about it. And, may I suggest, that any distrust issues she has are not about the food itself but about neglect and confinement. With the food in sight, she can push past her own distrust and eat to her heart's content. (Though I will caution that Labs are known to be chowhounds and can gorge, even if well-fed all the time.)

    And of course, this illustrates my point that sometimes, just a different person with different syllables can shed some light on an idea.

    LCK's explanations are actually quite technical with a very tight stream of logic and involving principles of Quantum Mechanics and, of course, the topology math treatment inherent in the non-linear dog theory. Those aspects of science are my neck of the woods. I know a little too much about advanced math and particle physics and it was throwing me off the scent, if you will. And though I don't always agree with the maxims of reasoning used, I use them myself with the hoofbeats and horses thingy. Which is a colloquial saying for don't make so much hay out of a blade of grass or don't expect things that are not likely to be. Which does not deny the existence of zebras, in metaphor. We're still going to see zebras here and there. And I get a chance to mix metaphors, add a little jalapeno seasoning and a dash of red wine vinegar and ... wait ... that sounds more like dinner.

    I think I can see the value of the push exercise in that it allows the human to control and guide the amount of tension and release in graduated steps and to allow the confidence to build. And it involves treats, something I have some experience with, a known value, at least with my dog.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Chuffy

    spiritdogs

    To be honest, not everyone WANTS to increase their dog's drive, or have the dog make contact (think frail or disabled owner, or someone with toddlers in the home) but perhaps they do want to increase the dog's general level of confidence.  I have found that a bit of good old fashioned backyard agility training can do that (or just finding natural obstacles to hike over together).  There's something about mastering the obstacles that works wonders on quite a few dogs.  So, if pushing doesn't appeal to you for some reason, there are certainly other options. 

     

    *Raises hand* Yeah, me.

    We have a dog who has lots of confidence.  In fact, I often think of her as "pushy" because she IS, quite literally.  She physically "pushes" others to get to what she wants.  She pushes past us, other dogs, the cat, inanimate objects, undergrowth.... the baby.  It's NOT something I like to encourage.  I do the opposite.  I wait for her to STOP contact and hold herself back and away, exercise a little self control.  THEN she gets what she wants.

    So, if "pushing" is beneficial, is what I am doing harmful?

    It doesn't APPEAR to be (to me).  I think dogs SHOULD have some level of inhibition.  I think that's healthy.  When "something" inside the dog inhibits them from rummanging in my dustbin or jumping up on my work surfaces, I don't WANT them to work past it.  My question is: Is this process selective?  If it DOES increase the expression of the dog's drives, does it only do so in appropriate ways?  Are there any instances where this exercise, as well as encouraging a dog to play for example, has also instigated the dog to try something he wouldn't have done before - something the owner didn't WANT him to do before?

    (This is not to say I discard the idea entirely - I asked the same question re clicker training eons ago and I am now comfortable using a clicker and encouraging novel behaviours.) 

    I am highly un-astonished that this exercise results in dogs playing where they didn't before, or results in more play.  This is how DOGS play with one another.  I am not convinced this is directly related to prey drive (although I'll concede that play/prey are linked, I don't think they are one and the same). 

    Dogs and juveniles of other species play to learn about the things they need to do as adults.  Hunting is only ONE of those things.  Contesting over resources with another adult is another thing, and it has nothing to do with prey drive - does it?  Similarly, learning to live together harmoniously with others (of the same species and not of the same species) also has nothing to do with prey drive and this is another thing that is learned and strengthened through play.  Is it being suggested that the tension/release and the feel-good factor that follows, ONLY comes from "the hunt", tapping into prey drive?  Not sure if that's what is being said, but I don't agree with that notion at all.

     

     

    I so agree with your assessment of the nature of juvenile learning.  Certainly hunting behavior is learned through play (and observation), but certainly there are a range of behaviors learned through other drives.  Inhibition is a good thing that keeps dogs from making really bad decisions that could get them killed, and it's probably why shyness (before my second cup of java, and for lack of a better term) is a dominant trait among dogs.  If you are careful, you survive.  Sort of the same reason that only so many Evel Knievel's are born among humans - most humans do NOT jump motorcycles over the Snake River Canyon, or climb Mt. Everest, but some do.  A certain percentage of risk-takers benefits the whole population, but if there were too many, the population would actually be in danger. Wink

    Just because a behavior releases tension does not mean that's the only impetus for the behavior, nor does it mean that another impetus is not primary.

    When you live with Aussies, having to teach them to want to get to you is, IMO, a non sequitur. Big Smile
    If I thought my herding dogs didn't have an interest in getting to me, I'd first seek to know if I had done anything to inhibit their natural desire to be with their humans (read "social group";)

    Sometimes, we humans have more difficulty un-learning than learning.  Why would it be different for dogs?

    The thought just occurred to me, though, if this is part of "natural" dog training, when did dogs ever push on each others' chests with a primate hand?  When I see dogs during off leash play, they often push from the side, but it's more rare to see frontal pushing.  And, frankly, the frontal pushing leads to "tiffs" more often than the parallel stuff.  Thoughts on that?

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    These last posts are very exciting to me! Smile 

    corvus
    Perhaps by overcoing the slight tension, you actually raise the bar on anxiety somewhat, so that it takes a more stressful situation than before to even make them anxious in the first place. I'm looking at this as being about tension and confidence rather than pushing itself. 

     

    Excellent post, corvus! The whole thing was excellent! Sometimes I feel the words swimming around in my brain and I just can't seem to bring them into my mouth in an order that makes sense... but what a good job you did.

    One of the tenets I strongly disagree with in some training philosophies is to keep the dog from feeling anxiety or stress. If he doesn't like something, remove that "something". If the dog is uncomfortable, provide a way to make him comfortable or don't allow him to be put in that uncomfortable situation. The trouble with that is that he never learns to deal with that situation and secondly, it involves the need for a great deal of control over the dog and his environment... to "protect" him from coming into contact with things or situations that make him anxious.

    The pushing exercise is a classic example of pushing the envelope or tickling the edges of the comfort zone in order to help the dog break through the anxiety himself!

    DPU
    For the third time, I did not extend my arm between the Pollyanna and the food dish.  She ate.  I hope I am not messing things up by this.  By closely watching this dog and how she reacts to my movements, I have got to build trust in this dog.  I am seeing that this exercise may just help in doing that.

     

    This sounds very exciting, DPU! It sounds to me like you are quite good at reading Pollyanna's energy and responding to it properly. I have high hopes that you can help her and this exercise might be an appropriate tool to use. I have no doubt that you will be successful with her because it's my strong opinion that you're coming at it from the right state of mind. 

    Truley
    I wonder if I tried this a bit if I could stop some of his I am gonna eat you all up attitude when someone comes to my door or walks past my house?

     

    I would certainly try it! The main reason I decided to do this exercise is because of B'asia's snarkiness toward other (strange) dogs. I have stopped the "exposure" I was doing (although it was helping slightly) to concentrate on this course of action. When she sees other dogs, she goes a little bit berserk and strains at the leash and barks. It's just an instantaneous fear reaction and I can get her to stop for a time, but then when the other dog moves or the environment changes again, she's right back chomping at the bit. I think I'm about ready to give it another try today to see if I notice any improvement over last time. I will let you all know.

    ron2
    Most anyone can agree that a confident dog in a tense situation is less likely to respond by means of a fear reaction, i.e., less likely to bite, less likely to want to run away.

     

    Yeah, yeah, yeah... Now we're on the same page, thanks in huge part to corvus and her brilliant use of the language we all speak! LOL

    ron2
    With Carla's reply, I can see where, if possible, the emotion of successfully handling the stress or tension becomes a universal emotional state, akin to or having the appearance of generalization, though, with deference to LCK, it is not necessarily generalization and with deference to myself, perhaps we attach an inaccurate meaning to the word generalization.

     

    I'm going to say that in my opinion, it's NOT exactly generalization, because that (to me) implies a conscious awareness on the dog's part. I think it's more like mapping. Not something the dog would be aware of. To make an analogy (because I love to), it's a bit like working out my leg muscles because I had a serious knee injury. Every day I do certain exercises to build up the muscles that hold the knee-cap in place. Every few days, I increase the weight or number of reps as my leg muscles get stronger. One day, my neighbor suggests we go horseback riding together. I mount the horse like I've been doing it all along. Not because I consciously realize that my legs are stronger, so I can do this, I just do it and it works.

    With B'asia, her confidence is injured. So I'm doing an exercise that strengthens her "confidence muscles". By using them and increasing the demand on them, they are getting stronger. So next time she's in a situation where they come in handy, they'll be there for her. That may be a bit simple, but it makes the point (I hope).

    • Gold Top Dog

    spiritdogs
    most humans do NOT jump motorcycles over the Snake River Canyon, or climb Mt. Everest, but some do.  A certain percentage of risk-takers benefits the whole population, but if there were too many, the population would actually be in danger.

     

    We're not asking our dogs to be "risk-takers" or involve themselves in dangerous situations. We're not asking them to be doggy dare-devils. We're asking them to learn to move through irrational fear. We're not asking them to let go of all inhibitions, we're asking them to NOT eat the people that we invite in the house, to feel more confident when presented with others of their own species and not move into a fearful reaction. We're asking them to trust us to take them to the vet.

    spiritdogs
    When you live with Aussies, having to teach them to want to get to you is, IMO, a non sequitur.

    This is not about teaching the dog to want to get to you. B'asia (and I'm sure Kord, at least) are with us all the time. They are velcro dogs who adore their humans.  B'asia is with me ALL the time. That's not at all what the exercise is for. Smile

    spiritdogs
    The thought just occurred to me, though, if this is part of "natural" dog training, when did dogs ever push on each others' chests with a primate hand? 

    This is one exercise of natural dog training, which has to do with working with the dog's natural drives. Their "nature".


    The reason dogs don't listen is because they are confused. The reason dogs are confused is because their training wasn't based on their innate nature. Dogs want to cooperate. Any two dogs, when left to their own devices and within a natural setting, always and infallibly learn to cooperate. It's a law of nature as predictable and uniform as gravity. If a dog isn't listening to you, it's because you are not appealing to his true nature.

    Hope that helps.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany

    We're not asking our dogs to be "risk-takers" or involve themselves in dangerous situations. We're not asking them to be doggy dare-devils. We're asking them to learn to move through irrational fear. We're not asking them to let go of all inhibitions, we're asking them to NOT eat the people that we invite in the house, to feel more confident when presented with others of their own species and not move into a fearful reaction. We're asking them to trust us to take them to the vet.

    I would reply to Spiritdogs here. Even though we're not asking them to be motorcycle jumping daredevils, the dogs may feel risk just as strongly as we feel risk with flying a vehicle that was not designed to fly. It's the fear or tension or whatever. And SD raises a good point in that dogs do not, as a rule, push front to front. It is often to the side or at an acute angle to the frontal. And, with any system, especially one that involves a resistive contact, there could be a risk of over-generalization or under-generalization or we could just call it personality change. Which could be either good or bad. This is the risk that DPU is contemplating very seriously. Will the exercise build trust or will it drive her away? And, for what it's worth, I don't think she is HA. I think the previous handlers were wrong in their actions and she acted quite reasonably. When you apply great physical force on a beast with fangs and a genetically advantageous large coronoid process, you might get bit.

    There is a risk that the dog will assume that it is okay or rewarding to push on humans all the time. Dogs do what works. That's where my thought comes in that one may not be able to predict the direction of generalized behavior coming from this exercise, even as I can see the value of it, even theoretically. As for Shadow, I have the behavior of jumping on me on cue. So, if I don't ask for it, he is less likely to do it. It is sublimated which may seem like me being a control freak. But I won't having him jumping on guests, even if it means "suppressing" his desire to jump in greeting. Sometimes, inhibition is a good thing for all concerned, another of SD's points.

    Also, in deference to SD's points, a confidence building exercise does not have to involve pushing or being pushed and it certainly inspires me to contemplate what other exercises can be used to build confidence. I know have done so with clicking and treating for calm behavior and for focus on me in distracting circumstances. This increases his confidence, I think, at least in me and my ability to lead him to good places. That being calm and confident in various circumstances, regardless of stress, is a good thing. And this exercise may suitable for some dogs, maybe not all. One has to read the individual dog, as DPU is doing. For example, he didn't push the dog, he simply barred access by the presence of his hand. And that may be all the dog will need, as opposed to ever-increasing physical resistance. The question is whether the dog will move past her internal inhibition to being near humans if humans have abused her. She seems to trust the other dogs.

    And I do appreciate understanding the underlying (to me) point of the exercise. Building confidence in the face of adversity or tension. With the proviso that the confidence leads to calm behavior, as opposed to more drivey or pushy behavior that goes past what is valued socially, with other dogs and with humans.

    ETA:

    Here's where I differ with the theory as presented in the blog. I do not think dogs see us as prey. Dogs are scavengers and we are a good source of food generated by our unsurpassed manipulation of the environment. That and our omnivorous nature and being the most vicious animals on the planet make us the species we are. Anyway, a wolf at most, might view us as a competing apex predator. And we are only predating them when they come after our livestock. (Funny story, right after we got Shadow. At our friend's place the fence bordered a ranch. Shadow got through the fence and encounter a couple of 2,000 lb cows. He turned right around and came back through. "those dogs were too big for me.";)

    And it may again, resolve to rewarding for focusing on us, which can also be accomplished in other ways though, for some dogs, this exercise might be the short track.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    ron2
    I would reply to Spiritdogs here.

    Interesting. It looks like you replied to me. Big Smile

    ron2
    Even though we're not asking them to be motorcycle jumping daredevils, the dogs may feel risk just as strongly as we feel risk with flying a vehicle that was not designed to fly.

    No argument. Yes the dogs feel fear, but it is an irrational fear (the danger isn't really there) as opposed to a rational fear of a dare-devil flying over the Grand Canyon. Does it feel any different to the dog? Probably not. He's convinced the fear is rational. My point, in response to SD, is that increasing the dog's confidence isn't putting the dog in real danger, only making it easier for him to deal with everyday normal situations like seeing other dogs and going to the vet.

    ron2
    And SD raises a good point in that dogs do not, as a rule, push front to front.

    No one is saying that they do. (Or did I miss that?)

    ron2
    There is a risk that the dog will assume that it is okay or rewarding to push on humans all the time.

    That possibility is greater than zero. I don't see any indication of that. LCK, who has been doing this for 2 years, has never seen any indication of that. And I'm teaching the behavior on cue. I suppose there is still a "risk", but it sounds pretty darn small. But if people don't want to do this exercise because of the possible "risks" involved (which no one has ever seen materialize), I don't think they should do it. Smile

    Just to reiterate, B'asia was quite pushy already. If anything, she's looking at my face and eyes more for cues instead of throwing herself at me, now. I see her focusing on me more. There's more of a non-physical connection than there was before. She doesn't seem to need to slam into me to get my attention. She just looks at me. It's strange.

    ron2
    Sometimes, inhibition is a good thing for all concerned, another of SD's points.

    And if this exercise was to teach the dogs to be uninhibited, it would be a good point. Wink There's a key difference here between inhibition and lack of confidence. Check it out. Learning confidence is NOT the same as casting aside all reasonable and unreasonable inhibitions. Confidence (at least what is being taught here) is a logical certainty of one's own power and abilities. To be uninhibited is to act without restraint, logical or not, which, yes, can be dangerous. These are 2 different concepts.

    ron2
    a confidence building exercise does not have to involve pushing or being pushed and it certainly inspires me to contemplate what other exercises can be used to build confidence.

    Totally agreed. And, as I said before, there's something about this one-on-one, me "against" you exercise that attracts me and "feels" right for what B'asia needs. Just as you feel attracted to clicking to calm, something in me wants to go for the base drive of the dog and work with that. It's REALLY exciting to me to think of contacting the most animalistic part of the dog.

    ron2
    And this exercise may suitable for some dogs, maybe not all.

    Absolutely agreed.

    ron2
    I do not think dogs see us as prey

    I think I understand what you mean here. I don't think dogs look at us and see bunny ears superimposed on our heads. Stick out tongue But one of the tenets of NDT (agree with it or not) is that dogs (from their ancestors) look at the world around them in terms of their various drives. They funnel everything in through their context, which is largely formed by their prey drive, especially as regards other animals (of which we are one). So, whenever he connects with another animal, the question arises, "Is this prey or predator"? And because of our unique relationship with the dog, the answer to that question is "Both."

    Do I buy this theory? I say it's possible. That's as far as I need to go with it, at least for now.

    ron2
    And it may again, resolve to rewarding for focusing on us, which can also be accomplished in other ways though, for some dogs, this exercise might be the short track.

    I think this exercise is the short track. And there's nothing inherently wrong in taking the shortest route between two points, as long as nothing important or integral is sacrificed by taking that route. In fact, I think it's the best thing to do.

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany

    Hmmm... Where to start? If you have a dog with lots of confidence, there's no need to do a confidence building exercise that I can see. Why would you? Pushing is a confidence building exercise for dogs who lack confidence. So, I wouldn't advise it for your dog... unless he has other behavioral issues.

    Pushing (in our context) is not about making a B'asia want to play. It's about having her be willing to give up her "prey" to us. She LOVES to play. She just won't give up the frisbee once she has "caught" it.

    The "pushing" exercise does not make a dog "pushy". It teaches a dog to deal with feelings of insecurity and even (hopefully) fear. It teaches a dog to "push past" emotional confusion, irrational desires to attack and to withdraw (fight or flight).

    Chuffy
    I think dogs SHOULD have some level of inhibition.  I think that's healthy.  When "something" inside the dog inhibits them from rummanging in my dustbin or jumping up on my work surfaces, I don't WANT them to work past it. 

    I don't know what to say. Have you read the attached articles? Do you know the purpose of the exercise?

    Chuffy
    If it DOES increase the expression of the dog's drives

     

    I don't think it increases drive. It teaches the dog to deal with his drive. 

     

    Again, FIC, I think you've hit the nail on the head. The pushing exercise teaches the dog how to deal with with shifts in energy that would normally throw him off-balance.

    The following, from the intro to my blog article, "Swimming Upstream: Using Resistance to Solve Behavioral Problems," may help people understand this a little better (and please remember, this is from a weblog):

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

    We've talked a lot here about how tug and the pushing exercise can build a dog's confidence. And that sounds fine and quite noble in a way, but what does it mean really, to build a dog's confidence? And what about dog owners who perceive their dog's aggression, for example, as not being caused by a lack of confidence, but too much of it (or "dominance";)? Or the woman I met on the street today whose dog's paws are bright pink from being licked obsessively, yet the owner claims her dog is super confident, and the least anxious dog you'd ever meet? On a certain level neither type of dog needs to have their confidence built, but they both need help with what's going on inside their emotional pressure cookers.

    As usual I think it's best to take this down to its barest essentials: how the dog handles changes in the continuous flow of energy between himself and the environment. As we know, when talking about dogs as part of an energy exchange system, a dog's energy has two polarities: attraction and resistance. Also, since it's been my thesis for a long time that dogs are part of a self-organizing system, which for lack of a better word we call "the pack," I was both surprised and delighted to find this definition of self- organizing systems on Wikipedia:

    "Self-organization is a process of attraction and repulsion
    in which the internal organization of a system, normally an open
    system, increases in complexity without being guided or managed by
    an outside source. Self-organizing systems typically (though not
    always) display emergent properties."


    On the topic of self-organizing systems, I've recently upgraded my website, and I've also been revising my first novel, A Nose for Murder, in order to make it available again, through a "second printing," something my publisher has given up on. (They also gave up on Murder Unleashed, which will be my next revision project.) At any rate, in that first novel, Jack Field says the following: "I see the pack more as a self-emergent heterarchy."

    Now this idea, of the canine pack as a self-emergent system, has been a theme (or sub-theme) throughout all of my novels. The point here is that self-organizing systems are said to operate on polarities of attraction and resistance (or repulsion), which for me, goes directly back to Natural Dog Training by Kevin Behan, even though Kevin had never heard of emergence theory when he wrote it. But since the topic of today's blog is how and why playing tug and doing the pushing exercise helps a dog overcome behavioral problems by building his ability to deal with sudden shifts in energy, particularly in the form of strong feelings of resistance that he feels he can't get past, I thought I should lay down a bit of that foundation first:

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    One of the problems I mentioned in an earlier post, about understanding a new theoretical paradigm from within the conceptual framework of the old one, is that with any new theory, at least one that really is part of a paradigm shift, there has to be new language to describe phenomena. So while the pushing exercise can be viewed as increasing the prey drive, or increasing self-confidence, or decreasing inhibitions (at least on a certain level), what it's really about is teaching the dog that he can handle shifts in energy that normally would cause him to feel resistance to those changes. That's why I came up with the salmon swimming upstream analogy in my blog article. Here it is:

    ~~~~~~~~~~~

    All aggression is based on fear. And Willie is exhibiting high levels of nervous tension (or stress). Think of the little guy as a salmon swimming upstream, fighting against the current, only Willie is fighting against internal emotional currents that get stirred up in him when he sees other dogs and feels suddenly as if he's going to be attacked. In the normal scope of things, his emotional river runs through a broad channel, and the current travels at a slow, comfortable pace. But when he sees another dog, the energy builds, the emotions tighten up in him, and he feels like he's going to "drown." So he lashes out at what he perceives to be the locus point of the sudden energy shift from lazy river to extreme rapids.



    The reason his emotions feel like rapids is that he doesn't have a normal, well-balanced dog's (or a salmon's) natural skill for swimming upstream. This is probably because he was abused or trained in very heavy-handed manner before you came along and rescued him. So, to repeat the metaphor, when there's a sudden influx of energy, he feels thrown off balance emotionally. And since he has strong levels of social attraction, his instinctive strategy is to go AT the other dogs rather than to run AWAY from them. The primary reason he does this is that he hasn't been given the skill-set necessary for dealing with strong feelings of internal and external resistance. He doesn't know how to swim against the current.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

    Okay, so Willie's problem was the sudden shift in energy he felt when he saw another dog. With B'asia, it seems that her problem was a form of "resource guarding," which is an anxiety-based behavior. And so far the pushing exercise seems to have reduced the anxiety that caused her to not want to let go of the Frisbee. With Trevor (who I mention briefly in my blog article) the problem was SA/D (which he's had for nearly 10 years). The pushing exercise has helped him deal with the shifts in internal energy he feels when he's left alone. For Fancy, the boxer I mentioned in a previous post, the problem was aggression at the dog run. When she was wrestling with another dog she was fine until the energy got to be too much for her, then she shifted into fear aggression. Doing the pushing exercise not only turned that around, it also seemed to get rid of her fear of of sidewalks grates, something I wasn't even working on! Plus it made her less wiggly and more direct when meeting new people or other dogs.

    The point is that the pushing exercise isn't designed to reduce all of a dog's inhibitions, just to reduce those based on fear or blocked drive flow. Remember, in the NTD paradigm we look at all behavior as part of energy flow between the dog and his environment, internal and external. The energy flows more readily to the "proper" behaviors when there's less fear/tension/resistance and more release/attraction in relation to the self-organizing system he has with his owner and other dogs. Certainly a dog shouldn't be jumping up on work surfaces, counter-surfing or getting into the garbage, but I've found that when a dog learns how to handle his energy flow, whether that comes from removing all forms of dominance from the owner's interactions with the dog, or from teaching the dog to obey by using his drive flow in training, or giving him lots of hard vigorous playful activity, or using the pushing exercise, the dog no longer needs to counter-surf or get into the garbage or jump up on people. His drive flow is free from the blockages that are the actual cause of those behaviors.

    The pushing exercise is not a magic bullet, by any means. But it's a big help in relieving the dog's internal tension and stress. And that creates remarkable behavioral changes (like those that seem to be happening with B'asia) as part of a trickle-up effect.

    I hope this helps add a little to everyone's understanding of this,

    LCK 

    By the way, the pushing exercise is fairly new, meaning you won't find it in Natural Dog Training. The techniques Kevin recommended in that book were based on teaching the dog to jump up on command. Some of the other exercises in that book are also out of date.

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany
    These last posts are very exciting to me! Smile 

    corvus
    Perhaps by overcoing the slight tension, you actually raise the bar on anxiety somewhat, so that it takes a more stressful situation than before to even make them anxious in the first place. I'm looking at this as being about tension and confidence rather than pushing itself. 

     

    Excellent post, corvus! The whole thing was excellent! Sometimes I feel the words swimming around in my brain and I just can't seem to bring them into my mouth in an order that makes sense... but what a good job you did.

    One of the tenets I strongly disagree with in some training philosophies is to keep the dog from feeling anxiety or stress. If he doesn't like something, remove that "something". If the dog is uncomfortable, provide a way to make him comfortable or don't allow him to be put in that uncomfortable situation. The trouble with that is that he never learns to deal with that situation and secondly, it involves the need for a great deal of control over the dog and his environment... to "protect" him from coming into contact with things or situations that make him anxious.

    The pushing exercise is a classic example of pushing the envelope or tickling the edges of the comfort zone in order to help the dog break through the anxiety himself!

    Exactly. And this is why I wrote (in response to Ron) that most dogs don't really like doing this exercise very much! They seem peeved that they have to go through it in order to eat their damn supper! Some of them come to learn to love it. Trevor hated it at first. But now, when he knows it's dinner time, he gives me this excited look, like he's saying, "Can we play now?" But I think on a certain level, most of them would rather just eat from their bowl.

    LCK