LCK1:Are you talking about a wolf pup stalking an adult, or an adolescent wolf doing so?
X: Pup or adolescent, it doesn't matter.
LCK2: Of course it matters. There's a tremendous difference in how and why adult wolves interact with pups as opposed to how and why they interact with adolescents. With pups the desire of the adult seems to be to build the pup's confidence. With adolescents the underlying desire, in terms of how they interact, is quite different, it's mostly about teaching hunting skills, and getting the younger dog to "grow up."
LCK1: As I see it, all behavior is the result of tension and release
X: I
won't disagree with this, but I will say that behavior chains from
canids can be utterly complicated and involved, and often will contain
deception as part of the behavior chain. Dog play often involves
deception. Hunting behavior often involves deception, and as mentioned
in another post, camouflage.
LCK2: I wasn't responding to the idea that a chameleon or octopus camouflages itself, but the idea that dogs "pretend" not to notice being stalked. I also question your premise that deception is automatically part of a dog's behavioral repertoire. To me that's much too thoughtcentric to be valid.
LCK1: But again, breaking eye contact is a way of reducing tension.
X: If
that is so, then breaking eye contact with a more dominant being would
be self-preserving, would it not?
LCK2: Why would you think that? Do you suppose I meant that breaking eye contact is a way that one dog has of reducing another dog's tension? That's just silly. All a dog can be concerned with is the energetic changes in his own internal states, and how his behaviors, as well as the behaviors of others impact on those states. I don't think it has anything to do with self-preservation. In fact I don't think self-preservation is ever an issue for dogs. Feeling safe is, certainly. And wanting to feel safe. But dogs have no ability to know or understand the need for self-preservation. To do that they'd have to be aware of their own mortality.
I know this may seem like a semantic distinction (though I think semantics can be very important), but in my view that's how a lot of this folklore that dogs can "think" gets started. The ideas, for example, that dogs mark their territory to "send a message to other dogs," or that a dog who goes through a door first "thinks" he's alpha. There's a lot of folklore (which, in my view, includes the "survival" instinct) which subconsciously tells us that dogs can think.
So back to your statement: how can a dog process the idea that he needs to preserve his own life? Is he aware of his mortality as well as being aware of another dog's thoughts?
X: I challenge you, or anyone else to
get into a staring contest with my dog. He'll stare eye to eye with
any dog, person, or other being for hours.
LCK2: Oh, please.
LCK1: Certainly the ability to avoid danger must be
hard-wired as part of the adult wolf's behavioral repertoire.
X: It's called the "Fight or Flight" response. Here's a short description in case you need a reminder:
LCK2: What you're patronizing me, now? That's my shtick!
X: So
therefore the "Flight" response is the same in predator or prey.
LCK2: Yeah, I know. I explained that already in another post.
X: However we see the "stalked" dog, during the game, being deceptive, not
making eye contact but instead using peripheral vision-in order to
continue the game.
LCK2: Exactly true, sort of. At least about the peripheral vision (though again, you're still missing the simplest explanation). But you're right that if he wanted to discontinue the game entirely, he'd walk away, or sniff the ground. The fact that he breaks eye-contact doesn't automatically mean he doesn't want to play, nor does it automatically mean he's being "deceptive." That's anthropomorphic. No, it's simply a matter of how much tension he can or wants to handle at that moment, and how he chooses to deal with the tension that's suddenly arisen. I mean, that's the fundamental cause of the behavior. If you want to think he's being deceptive, fine. It's certainly possible to read it that way, but it also brings up a lot of questions about theory of mind and levels of consciousness that are very, very iffy.
X: Dogs like to play games.
LCK2: Really? I did not know that. Perhaps you missed the post where I linked to a blog article I wrote on how important play is to a dog's happiness and neurological development. Or the fact that most of my training method is based on play, as opposed to dominance or +R. (And not, play is no just another form of +R; my article explains why not.)
X: If the stalked dog makes
eye contact, that particular round of "the game" is over.
LCK2: Not necessarily, it just changes the particular dynamics of the game. The breaking of eye contact just indicates to me that the dog isn't quite ready or comfortable enough with the other dog's energy to immediately start wrestling or to start a chase.
X: Even the stalking dog knows that the stalked dog is aware of it.
LCK2: How can one dog possibly know what another dog is aware of? Seriously. Explain how that's possible. He can certainly feel the other dog's emotional state by the way the other dog's behavior (or lack of it) impinges on his own emotional state. But how can a dog even be aware of his own emotional states? He would have to have the ability to use and understand language to be that self-aware. (Helen Keller said that before she learned sign language she had no awareness of her own emotional states.) So you first have to explain how the dog has an awareness of his own emotional states, then you have to explain how the dog can be aware of what the other dog is aware of. That's a pretty tall order.
Look, you seem to have taken a snide, snotty tone with me. Perhaps you feel that I was being snide with you (I certainly have been in this post), and you were just responding in kind. Maybe you're just snotty in general. I have no way of knowing. If your attitude is a response to something you perceived in my previous post, I apologize for that. And if you want to believe dogs are capable of being aware of another dog's thought processes, be my guest. But if you're going to assert things like that it would be helpful for you to explain how these amazing mental feats are done. That's all.
LCK