If a dog says "No"......

"If your dog says no, you are either asking the question wrong, or asking the wrong question."

I'm going to say that it depends. Sorry. Because sometimes I ask something of my dog and it's OK with me if he says no. If I ask something of him that I NEED from him, or something that I insist he do, then I would say that the statement does apply. If he refuses to do something that I insist of him then I need to figure out a different way of asking.

I think it is true for all animals. If they say no, then I rethink what I'm asking of them, reassess what they're capable of, and take it from there.

Having said that, I've had moments with all my animals where they've said no out of sheer obnoxiousness or just to see if I'll let them do what they want instead. You've got to know when you're being tested and when the animal genuinely doesn't want to do something for some other reason. Bonnie says no about 15 times a day, and that's just in the few hours I spend at home with her! Sometimes I listen and sometimes I ignore her. She's a very angry rabbit, though, and she often says no even when I know 10 seconds later she's going to love me for whatever I've insisted she do. She also thinks humans are rabbit slaves and have no right to ask anything of her, so she says no out of principle. The best way to deal with that is to give her raisins first so she thinks she's rewarding you for the raisins by being cooperative.
 

I think it can apply to dogs to an extent.  IF they don't understand what you are expecting of them-then I think it applies.  But, if I ask my dog to do something she knows and she says "no", she just gave me the wrong answer, I didn't ask the wrong question.

I think that a dog may say "no", especially an independent breed, who knows that value of independent thought. And one needs to examine how the question is asked and what is the reward for complying. And, for some dogs, how the question is asked is key. They link a certain behavior to a certain command and that command must have the same intonation, etc, every time. If the intonation or inflection is different, then it is a different command. Which may mean that dogs are more subtle in their hearing and distinction of noise or verbal cues than some may believe. Other dogs, especially those trained in varying circumstances, may learn that the word, regardless of intonation, is linked to the behavior. But for some dogs, they don't generalize the word. It must be spoken a certain way.

I'm still thinking about this, LOL!  But, the more I think about my answer, the more I'm thinking, I don't "ask" her to do much of anything.  Well, maybe if you want to put it nicely but really I'm "telling" her to do stuff.  I don't really expect her to feel like she has a choice--even though I know a lot of times she thinks she does.

willowchow

I don't "ask" her to do much of anything.  Well, maybe if you want to put it nicely but really I'm "telling" her to do stuff. 

I had the same thought. And in my answer here I said I sometimes felt like I had to find another way to ask it, but that doesn't mean that it's a "nicer" way or necessarily better or more pleasant for the dog. In another thread, I posted an audio of myself, first calling Jaia in the normal way and then going for my "I mean business" voice if he didn't respond. Here's that audio:

Normal recall command compared with "I mean business" command.

I'm not sure this is what the OP had in mind in this thread.  

willowchow

I think it can apply to dogs to an extent.  IF they don't understand what you are expecting of them-then I think it applies.  But, if I ask my dog to do something she knows and she says "no", she just gave me the wrong answer, I didn't ask the wrong question.

There's also yet another possibility - intelligent disobedience.  If you ask your dog to "heel" and she refuses, what if it's because you wanted her to "heel" with you over a sidewalk grate that has become electrified?  Or, what if she spots the two coyotes in the brush a couple of yards from you and you don't?  They aren't always trying to get away with not doing as we ask - sometimes, they're smarter than we give them credit for:-)) 

FourIsCompany

I don't "ask" her to do much of anything.  Well, maybe if you want to put it nicely but really I'm "telling" her to do stuff. 

I rarely "tell" my girls what to do, but teach most things that there is always a choice to be made. I have found that in doing so, it creates animals who realize they HAVE choices, and in this way can very easily learn the consequences of those choices, and in the majority of cases, choose the desirable option, since I usually only ask for things when there is something in it for them. 

Granted, there are some things that "need" to be done. Don't get me wrong. Grooming needs to be done, they don't have the option to say "not now please". But I make it so that grooming is as fun as possible, so that often there is little hesitation to be groomed in the first place. Nails need to be done. But again I make it enjoyable, and often the girls flop themselves over and two minutes later I'm done. So what happens is that these "need to be done" things turn into "don't mind it", and often to "these are fun things!". And I've very open to compromise, especially when the dog is saying "no" because of discomfort or fear.

There are also some things that the dogs are always open to saying yes or no to. For instance, going outside. Most of the adults will go out when they feel the need. The younger ones go out more regularly. When it's time to "go pee", the ones who want to go, will go. The ones who don't, will stay in. Very rarely do they "have" to go out when they don't want to (rainy days come to mind...haha).

There are so many contexts of "no", though, that it's hard to say what you'd do in each case. For instance, Gaci, who has come a long way in her fear of people, and is now initiating contact on her own, and will even jump up on the couch beside you to sniff or lick your hand. But she is still very much in the mindset of saying "no" to being touched by strangers, and I ensure that her wishes are respected.

For everyday things, such as going outdoors, going on walks, or doing normal behaviours, the girls quickly learn they have choices and they are allowed to make choices, learning the consequences of those choices. Because I rarely ever ask for things in daily life that don't have something the dog wants, they tend to do as I ask.

If you think a dog says "no" to something, though, it's important to look at the context before jumping to anything:
1. Did the dog hear you? Pretty simple it seems, but sometimes we don't hear people too.
2. Does the dog fully understand what you are asking? Has it been well-learned? Often, people assume that because the dog does it in the living room, it will do it in the front yard, or at the park, or in a dog show. Dogs need to have practice at performing behaviours in a variety of environments of varying distractions before you can really call it "learned".
3. Might it be painful to the dog? Is the dog showing hesitation in doing it somehow? Does it look at you as though it understands, and begins to do the behaviour but stops?
4. Might it simply be aversive to the dog? For instance, Gaci hates laying down in wet grass (can't say I blame her!) or on snow. If I would ask her to "down", she would basically do a play bow or hover above the ground. I can easily see that she knows what I'm asking, but that she's not comfortable doing it. I could be a meanie and make her do it, but I choose not to, as firstly it's not that important to me that she does it, and secondly, it's one of those cases where I allow her to have a say in what happens in life.
5. Is the dog under stress? Stress can really affect a dog's ability to comply with normal behaviour requests. If a dog is under stress, due to health, medical issues, fear, just got injured, has thrown up, or really anything else that could cause stress, I tend to give dogs the benefit of the doubt and dont' ask too much of them for a while, as often a dog will be stressed in the first place about not doing something, and then making the dog do it can just enhance the dog's overall stress hormones.

Basically the way I live my life with dogs leads to the dogs rarely saying "no", so I don't end up being in a position to ask "What would I do?". I'm trying to think of a situation right now and there's not really one coming to me....lol. If I think of one (as I'm sure there are some in my memory somewhere!), I'll post what I have done about it. Chances are usually it comes down to motivations and making the thing I want them to do more important than what they want to do.

But on the other hand, in reciprocation, there are times my dogs "make" me do things when I say "no" too, so once again it comes down to communication and needs, and respecting one another. For instance if Gaci jumps up off the bed in the middle of the night, I'll ask her to get  back up on the bed. If she does, and then jumps off again, I'll ask her to get back up. Then she'll proceed to come annoy me by nudging the blankets, sniffing my face, and generally getting my attention before jumping off the bed again. When she does this, I know she wants out, and I enjoy that she didn't take my version of "no" for an answer. If I've been somewhat lacking in my attention of the dogs on a particular day, they'll let me know quite openly. If I had a very busy day at work, then come home and spend time on the computer, the dogs may be more, not to say pushy, but more clear in their desire to have some dog/mom time, than on other days where they've had lots of dog/mom time. And if that happens I certainly listen to their needs and comply.

So basically, the answer to the original post is, I think it certainly applies to dogs, as it applies to all animals, but I also say "it depends" when it comes to the context.

  Well, maybe if you want to put it nicely but really I'm "telling" her to do stuff.  I don't really expect her to feel like she has a choice--

I want my dogs to always feel they have a choice. I would never force them to do anything unless it's some kind of life-threatening emergency. If they say NO it's my fault somehow- I undermotivated them, they are confused, they are distracted, they are scared, something, and it's up to me to get them to eagerly, joyfully answer YES.

mudpuppy

  Well, maybe if you want to put it nicely but really I'm "telling" her to do stuff.  I don't really expect her to feel like she has a choice--

I want my dogs to always feel they have a choice. I would never force them to do anything unless it's some kind of life-threatening emergency. If they say NO it's my fault somehow- I undermotivated them, they are confused, they are distracted, they are scared, something, and it's up to me to get them to eagerly, joyfully answer YES.

And this is the crux of the difference between training methods, too.  Eloquently described in Kim's post, it's all about motivating our dogs to want to respond in the affirmative to our requests.  And, oddly, the result of such training is usually a dog that does say yes. 

Ugh, you guys. . .sometimes these types of threads are so frustrating.

There is a very obvious difference between her not wanting to do something because she's being bratty and not wanting to do something because she's perceiving some sort of danger.  I would definately recognize the difference immediately and NOT have an issue if she was hesitating because she sensed a problem. 

And, really you guys aren't giving your dogs a choice to do something or not either.  They want the treat or the reward, not to do the actual command or whatever it is.

Also--Isn't it confusing for the dogs to have to do somethings like grooming and have a choice to do things other times? 

willowchow

There is a very obvious difference between her not wanting to do something because she's being bratty and not wanting to do something because she's perceiving some sort of danger.

"If your horse says no, you are either asking the question wrong, or asking the wrong question."

Any animal can say "no". When they do, I assess the situation and the possible reasons. I also consider previous experiences with the dog. Typically if Ares or Tyr says "no", I am asking him to do something that will cause him discomfort. With Nyx, it indicates that I asked her to do something she didn't fully understand. With Morgan, it is very likely that she simply has other plans at the moment and she may or may not do what was asked later, when she's ready to. I can certainly alter the environment to narrow down her options ~ or stack the cards to make a "no" less likely, but that isn't really allowing her a choice.

corgipower

I can certainly alter the environment to narrow down her options ~ or stack the cards to make a "no" less likely, but that isn't really allowing her a choice.

I agree. It's all the same, really, whether we say we're stacking the cards to make a yes MORE likely or stacking the cards to make a no LESS likely. Whether we make the "request" into a demand or hang out a chunk of roast beef, it's all done to make complying with our request more valuable to them than NOT complying.  

corgipower

There is a very obvious difference between her not wanting to do something because she's being bratty and not wanting to do something because she's perceiving some sort of danger.

Of course there is, I'm not sure anybody claimed otherwise. I didn't anyhow. Although I must say that I can probably count on one hand the number of times both of my girls have said "no" to be bratty....and it would likely involve three fingers *G*.  My guys just don't say no just to be bratty, or perhaps I simply define behaviours differently, who knows?

And you know, perhaps you'd have to actually be here to see it or believe it, but I really do give my dogs choices in a lot of things. Sure, it involves either getting what they want or not getting what they want, but the point is I don't make them do it, which is where choice comes in. If they want to go on that walk, they can sit at the door. If they don't want to sit, fine by me, I'll go without 'em. If they want to go on that car ride, they'll walk nicely on a loose leash, wait to get in, and then wait to get back out. If they want supper, they'll wait in their kennels, as that's where supper will be. Of course they are doing it for the reinforcement, the life reward, but at least the dog gets to decide whether the motivational state is sufficient enough, rather than me enforcing it as soon as I ask for it. These are all things taught through choices, and learning that choices have consequences. Dogs can also learn that consequence is being physically made to something then and there, at that time, when requested, but that's not how I choose to operate. And it works well for my lifestyle and my girls. And in my experience it has made learning a lot more effective, and it's very clear communication as well, that dogs understand.

Also--Isn't it confusing for the dogs to have to do somethings like grooming and have a choice to do things other times?