Dog Community

My dog nips! Herding?? Help!!

Posted : 12/12/2006 2:16:05 PM

When I got Sheba, she started to develop guarding tendencies. For example, I will be in the office, and someone would come in to talk to me. She will sit between me and the person, facing the person. Once the person starts to leave, she will trot after them, and very casually nip on their pant leg. She would also sometimes bump peoples legs with her shest, from behind as well, or she would also crowd them, getting very close in their space.

All that was freaking me out and I went to behaivorist. She tought me how to deal with problem, and we started to work on it.

Eventually I went with another behaivorist/trainer, to really improve our relationship. Now I have a very obedient dog. She reconizes me as a leader and protector of her. She won't try to guard me anymore. Most of her decision making process goes through me. She asks for aproval from me whenever she is not sure I would approve....

BUT.... occasionally she still does this pant leg nipping thing

She reached out for my neighbor, as he was passing, very recently.
Few days ago we had friends over. She was all over this guy, kisses, rubs, etc. But, when he got up off the couch to go to the bathroom, she jumped off to follow him, and I just saw her mouth open as she reached for his pant leg. Needless to say she got a correction.

What is the reasoning of this? Is it still guarding? Or am I overlooking somehting? I seriously want her to stop. One day she will nip the wrong person, and I don't even want to imagine the concequences.

Just to clarify, it is not a full bite, she doesn't growl, her hackles are not up, she is very relaxed, and does it very matter-of-factly. She would sometimes nip the pant, or sometimes she would just bump with her head (right in the calf area).

It is also not linked directly to me either. She does it with my boyfriend (neighbor insident happened when he was with her). She has done that recently with the friend of mine, who was taking care of Sheba while I was away. She took her to work, and Sheba did the nip attempt at her boss. They didn't know she was nipping, until he noticed saliva on his pant leg.

Most recent nip just puzzled me. She nipped the pant of a very close friend, who she knows and loves. He was going to the balcony for a smoke, and she did it to him.

I am glad it was him... She finally got corrected not by me, but by the victim (he is a pretty alpha guy). So, I will monitor it from there. But it just bugs me!! I can keep correcting her, however I'd rather learn the reasons and work with it, than to correct the symptoms.

Ideas anyone?

Oh, also, she does a lot of circling around. Like around her dog friends. She would just run in circles around them.

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Posted : 12/12/2006 5:11:52 PM

Well you nailed it right on the head.......your baby thinks she is doing a great job keeping everyone in line. Several years ago when I volunteered at a shelter a lady brought back the sweetest, cutest auusie pup because she had deemed it "vicious" because of this exact behavior so kudos to you for spotting it and understanding, thats awesome! Anne should be along soon (our resident herding owner) and will give you some awesome suggestions on how to curb this behavior. I just know that these breeds like having a job to do, it keeps them out of mishief! [sm=devil.gif]

Plus if she wanted to bite she would. When the one at the shelter actually clamped down on a ankle I saod " well I guess you wernt moving fast enough" ha ha!!!

Katya Lombrozo

Posted : 12/12/2006 5:54:18 PM

Sheprano, "these breeds" is an APBT [sm=rofl.gif].

I know pit bulls excell in all type of jobs, and some hold herding titles, but is it normal (or even natural) for them to act this way just because?

I am hoping some herding breed folks will chime in, as on how they curb those behaivors. If it is even possible....

See, when she gets corrected for somehting that she knows is bad, she acts the part. Guilty, asking for forgivness, etc.
With this herding/nipping thing, if corrected, she would look at you like "Whaaat? Did I do somehting wrong?"

Ugh...

zsrg;lb ksr'pfjsoprej dfsg;va bjpskopa]

Posted : 12/12/2006 6:02:36 PM

Ha ha ha ha, see what happens when I dont have my coffee! My pit bull thinks she is a pointer, ha ha! Anne will be along hopefully soon!

schleide

Posted : 12/13/2006 11:23:21 AM

I would try to teach a solid "leave it" so that you don't have t correct after a nip, rather you can say leave it as she starts to move towards someone's pant leg. Then you can pair the "leave it" with a behavior that is incompatible with nipping, such as sitting and looking at you - or, if she is good at trick, maybe a "say bye bye" trick where she sits and waves her paw... Then you would reward her for the correct behavior - so, not only is she learning that we "leave" retreating pants legs, she is also learning that rather than nip at pretreating pants legs, we waive bye bye at them, for which we get a treat...

spiritdogs

Posted : 12/13/2006 11:43:09 AM

Well, welcome to my world LOL! Herders have an innate desire to stop motion and they exhibit this behavior quite frequently. So, either you have a herder, or you have a Pit Bull with herding genes, LOL. Dogs that want to control the environment must do so with their mouths - no opposable thumbs, right? So, the key to limiting this behavior is exactly what schleide has recommended. There's nothing like a good "leave it" "come" to prevent the dog from following through on that instinct. With herders, if they are quite intense, they can nip hard enough to pierce human skin with a bite that would not, for example, do damage to a cow. So, the behavior needs to be curtailed.
Another thing you can do is provide an outlet for your dogs natural drive. With my Aussie, it's a good game of frisbee every day. But, other dogs may be motivated to chase, retrieve, pounce on toys, etc. So, that's ok, but the other behavior results in "leave it". Punishing can backfire if the dog equates the retreat of a person with the occurrence of pain. The dog may decide to make the human go away even faster...and with a harder nip.

tiffy

Posted : 12/13/2006 11:44:07 AM

My heeler mix does this. My cousin was walking to the bathroom, Dingo was following and he yelled HEY!, Dingo had nipped him right in the butt. Dingo also does this when you swing your hands when walking. Usually, I can catch it with a firm leave it, but not always. Its his breed and I don't know the correct way to stop it, but I definitely curb it.

Katya Lombrozo

Posted : 12/13/2006 1:26:05 PM

Hello all, and thank you for your input!

Well, I guess my dog didn't get the memo, that herding is not her job

She does have a very solid "leave it", "no" and a recall. The problem here, is that it is inconcistent. When this was happening at my work place, where I was present all the time, and I knew what she would do, and how she would do it, I was better at stopping her. These several times I described above (that occured in the last months) are totally sporatical and don't make any sense at all. Of course I will be more mindfull now, and watch her like a hawk.

I was watching her last night, as we had a playdate with some of the friends dogs There were 4 dogs total, and she spend most of the time running circles around the group. (Whenever she does that, I hear a "Sharks" soundtrack in my head [

]).

There was 4 people there too, but she hasn't try to herd them. Just the dogs.

So, the verdict here is that this is an instinct and is not worth fighting?

As far as channeling it: she is extremely ball driven. She will fetch until your arm falls off, and does that frequently. Maybe I can get her into some other activity? I wish we had a flyball group near by, I think she would have loved that.

spiritdogs

Posted : 12/14/2006 7:51:16 AM

It's an instinct all right, but it should be molded. A good herder has an "off" switch. "Leave it" "Come" "That'll do." should be in their vocabulary. Take the dog to class and work on it - you can do it!

brookcove

Posted : 12/14/2006 8:33:11 AM

By all means "fight" this instinct (or rather reshape it). When my pups start out by just running around in big circles around the flock, I don't just leave it at that. That's nice but sort of useless from a perspective of getting something done. The first thing I do is stop the circling to help them learn that they can control the stock just as well, just standing there in one place. When I block a dog from circling, the next thing that may happen is the dog may avoid me and dive into the sheep, grab one, and ride it across the ring. Also not good, although that's another instinct at work. Again, I don't say, well, that's the instinct, we'll just have to live with it! I say, "AH AH!" to break the dog's focus and then invite them back to the stock (remember these over here? you can play if you behave!).

Off stock my dog shouldn't be going around looking for things to "herd". They should basically follow me around. Try calling your dog off when he's circling those other dogs. If he doesn't respond instantly, that's something to work on - you're not enough in the picture - you're not the Most Interesting Thing in The World. I wouldn't let him "work" other dogs, but instead would concentrate on doing fun stuff with me. If his attention wavers from what you are doing to the other dogs, you say, "Ah ah!" and distract him with something to do, even something as simple as walking away with you for a few steps.

Once you've replaced the freelancing herding stuff with attentiveness to you, it should be fairly simple to stop the freelancing behavior with the pants legs and such. It may even stop on its own as your dog gets the message that freelancing in general is just not cool. If it doesn't, you can use the pattern of breaking your dog's focus, with a correction, then distraction with a command. The correction, be it ever so gentle, is important because it tells your dog that's NEVER appropriate, whereas simply distracting the dog would leave that behavior in the category of "Things That Are OK." Because we are dealing with instinct rather than really conscious behavior, leaving it will only cause it to increase - it is its own reward, kind of like sex. [

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