Shy dogs and Time

Willow had a similar issue when we first got her.  It took her I'd say a good almost year before she acted normally.  BUT, she never has treated my husband the way she treats me--running to the door when I get home, following me from room to room, laying at my feet, etc.  DH says when she's with him alone she just lays on her bed and does her own thing.  The only time she goes to find him is when she needs to go out. 

 I was talking to a guy in the pet store the other day who adopted a GSD at about 1 yr old. The dog is now 4 and he said she is FINALLY not afraid of her own shadow. So yeah, I'd say 3 yrs is probably about right. He said that it took a lot of work and a lot of patience. But when I met that dog, I wouldn't have known that she was shy and fearful. She came right up to me and my dog with her tail wagging and looking for attention.

willowchow

Willow had a similar issue when we first got her.  It took her I'd say a good almost year before she acted normally.  BUT, she never has treated my husband the way she treats me--running to the door when I get home, following me from room to room, laying at my feet, etc.  DH says when she's with him alone she just lays on her bed and does her own thing.  The only time she goes to find him is when she needs to go out. 

That sounds like Kenya.  If that were the end of it, I wouldn't even worry.  What worries me is that she still will startle if he stands up and his chair creaks, or move out of the way if he walks toward us, that sort of thing. There are certain other men that she actually likes (meaning SHE will initiate contact, etc).  I can't figure out why she is so much more relaxed and confident around them, yet skittish in her own home around the man she sees everyday.

OK for example right now DH was outside moving his car and he just came back in.  Kenya saw him coming in the door.  She is laying at my feet.  As he came in, her head popped up, ears all the way up and forward, and she's scooting her feet underneath her, like she thinks she might have to get up and leave.  DH is now kicking a toy at Coke and Kenya watches his EVERY move.  If he says "hi Kenya", then she will turn away, get up, and try to jump in my lap, lol. 

I've had Casey around a year now - and he is still not comfortable with my parents. He allows them to do the basics to him - esp. if it involves cheese or some other people food.

I think your trainer is right in saying roughly 3 years. Maybe less for her. She'll learn that your DH is there to stay - and she migt as well get used to it.

 Woobie is the first and only dog I've had that has fear issues, so I'm new to the whole thing myself.  I think it does take much much longer for dogs to overcome shyness and fear than almost anything else.  I've heard that on TV with alot of the trainers also.  And it always seems with us to be one step forward, 3 steps back.  It's never a steady progression forward, it's more stops and starts. 

I think Kenya might have preferences, but it appears from the pics that she's engaging with DH, and that alone can be seen as progress and success.  So many shy dogs won't make eye contact or will try to flee from the fearful thing.  (Oi! Woobie and kids, fuggedaboutit!)  "They" say it should be a daily ritual and for us, it mostly is.  I live in an area with lots of trails that people take their kids on, so he's exposed almost every day.  Some days, he trots on by like they're not even there and other days (like yesterday) I barely keep him on the leash and out of the road and the kids are like 500 feet away!!!  Maybe if Kenya and DH have planned sessions every day that are directed towards getting her to trust him, things would move more quickly.  The book Click to Calm has very precisely laid out exercises that I think could help.

FWIW, Woobie still gets skittish with my son, who he loves.  Because he's away at college the initial couple hours/days when he returns, Woobie bolts if he moves too fast or speaks too loud or deeply.  ~sigh~  I think some parts of it might be there forever. 

If I had to guess I'd say she was abused by the man who lived IN the home. 

How 'long' it takes depends on her AND on him.  If he actively pursues truly bonding with her -- and that's hard cos he has to give up 'Coke time' to PREFER to spend it with Kenya.  Silly stuff like lying down on his BACK next to her, just talking to her and literally spending super quality time with her day after day after day after DAY and NIGHT --

A year is on the short side.  Three if there's no extra effort and she has no setbacks.

But beyond that - if he truly TRIES to make her a priority and to let her know that ... it will change.

1.  He needs to feed her.  And take time to bond during that.  Talk to her.  Hand feed her some. 

2.  Deliberately put himself in almost 'submissive' postures around her.  When we had Millie David spent HOURS on his back next to her.  And he devised activities to help desensitize her to the things that scared her the worst.

 And altho it was ME she would cling to ... HE became her savior.  When we'd go in the car she was TERRIFIED of any sharp noises -- like in the South they have reflectors in the road on the white dotted strip and at the side of the road (you guys up north don't have them -- but it make it so they never have to paint lines on the roads down here) -- but they make a click click sound when you hit them with the tires.  to Millie they were like gunfire. 

David would have ME drive, and he'd have her in between his knees up front.  Then when we approached a RR crossing, or potholes or if there were reflectors he'd say "Millie, it's going to get noisey, it's gonna go bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, ... and then I'd deliberately hit a hole or drive over reflectors and he would repeat in a low, soothing tone bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety,  ... until he felt the nape of her neck relax.

That phrase bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety, bumpety,  became her mantra.  It would soothe her ANY time she was scaredy.

Within 3 months he was her mega hero.  WE had tons of setbacks -- oh my she was SO skittish.  One night David poured a 30 # bag of dogfood into the big rubber trashcan we kept food in and just the sound of that kibble hitting the container -- she lept sky high and FLEW out of the room.  She was a quivering mass in her crate for an hour. 

This is hard since your husband has bonded with Coke.  And it will require a completely different technique ... and Coke may get jealous.  But if he reassures Kenya with his voice ... takes it slow and deliberately tries to soothe her and reassure her that she's 'ok' and safe ...

And then you will have to continue it -- when he gets home encourage her to go 'see Dad' and such. 

THEN as time passes she will relax. 

It's taken TWO years with Kee and she is only *beginning* to bond with me.  I'm convinced that at some time in her life a 'big lady' hurt her. Specifically I think a big woman picked her up, probably hurt her in the process of picking her up and then THREW HER for some reason.  It's taken a LONG tme, and i've had to take it very very slow, but no longer am I JUST the "food lady".  Tonight she actually lingered after I ASKED if she wanted to be picked up.  She did NOT run from me ... I am super careful to keep her back entirely level when I pick her up (I literally put my entire arm under her between her legs back to front) and she ENJOYED being held and I got one little kiss!! 

(she obsesses super easy -- and usually she will go into a licking frenzy .. but no, I got ONE true 'thank you' kiss IT WAS GREAT).

Damage takes seconds to inflict.  And ages to get over.

I know you're getting all kinds of good info here.  But, what if he played with Kenya like he does with Coke?  Would she play or run away?  I know a big part of what broke Willow's shell with DH is that he would play and roughhouse with her and she really enjoyed it.  It started the bond between them. 

We've been dealing with the same issue since we got Apollo on March 2007...so about a year. When we frist got Apollo, I was there to pick him up (fiancee was working) then the next day fiancee had to go out of state for 5 days for work. I believe thats when Apollo bonded with me. He was very shy, very timid, towards people. But, he followed me everywhere, always had to touch me with a paw, or lean on me, slept with me every night, I walked him, fed him, etc....he trusted me. Then fiancee came home and Apollo nothing to do with him. But, fiancee still works allot, so since I still do everything with Apollo, we've just chalked it up to me spending more time with him. If fiancee tries to walk him and I'm at home, Apollo won't leave the driveway. But, if I'm out he'll go for a walk no problem. But Apollo won't snuggle fiancee on the couch or anything like that.

Ok - just a thought here. What if your DH took Kenya to one of her training classes? Just a few weeks or something, you could take Coke so you would still be there -but have DH do all the work with her.

willowchow

I know you're getting all kinds of good info here.  But, what if he played with Kenya like he does with Coke?  Would she play or run away?  I know a big part of what broke Willow's shell with DH is that he would play and roughhouse with her and she really enjoyed it.  It started the bond between them. 

RUN!!! If he talks to her or moves towards her, she leaves.  She doesn't really "play", period.  She doesn't play with me.  She has a high prey drive, but not much ball drive.  She plays all the time with Coke (keep away, tug toys, etc).  With humans she would rather work (do agility, train, etc). She is very serious and intense. You cannot do the roughhouse thing with her.  That sort of physical touch makes her very uncomfortable.  Coke we can sling over our shoulders or carry like a baby (and he's bigger than Kenya), but Kenya despises just being lifted into the bathtub.

She typically will only approach DH if he is laying down or sitting and not looking at her.  For example, if he's laying down she will sniff him and lick him.  If he's sitting at his computer, she will approach him and sniff, but if he turns toward her or acknowledges her, she will startle and leave. 

We feel like the progress she has made as been in the general sense.  For example, she is confident in public, confident in the show ring.  She doesn't startle every time I step on a leaf or trip on a root.  She will approach other dogs and people in public as long as they aren't charging at her.  Basically, in public she is fine.  Very calm, well-behaved, not reactive at all.  However, at home, it seems like progress stalled after the first month or so.  She acts the same around DH as she has since September. 

Callie, I know for a fact she was never abused or neglected.  There are two incidents that likely contribute to this, and unfortunately I know very little about both so it's mere speculation.  First, when she was born her mother did not produce milk.  The puppies went to a surrogate mother for milk, but Kenya and her sister were very small and weak and had to be hand fed.  I don't think they were expected to survive.  I'm guessing because they were kept will the breeder at all times for special care, they may have missed out on some socialization with the litter.  Again, I don't know how much or for how long, but it was a life or death thing.  Second, Kenya originally lived with the breeder's friend (her co-owner).  I don't know if she was already shy and skittish at this point, but one day she was with the husband, heard a loud noise, spooked, and ran off.  After that she did not trust him and it sounded like he tried a little too hard to win her back.  She went back to the breeder because it was obvious she was sort of fearful and distrustful of him.  I was told that they had two teenage boys and she was fine with them.

There are some things about Kenya that remind me of Sasha, although in other ways they are very different. Sasha seeks out human company, but she is VERY sensitive to body language, movement, and noise. How she responds to individual people depends on how they move more than how they treat her. She gets anxious and upset easily.

Is there any chance your husband is a "big mover"? Most men are!  If he is, his best bet with Kenya may be to pay attention to how he moves. I think its telling that she'll approach him if his body language is right.

With Sasha ... oy, when she develops a specific phobia it takes a while to get over it. And because her anxiety gets so high, desensitization has to happen in teeny tiny steps. I'm thinking of noise related fears and associations.

Sasha adores me and trusts me more than any one in this world, but the few times a noise related scare has left a lasting impression, it has taken ages to make headway. I don't want to get TMI, but my husband and I basically have to lock her out of our bedroom if we want to be intimate - because of one night that she over reacted to a sound, jumped out a window onto he roof, and was traumatized by being stuck on the roof until we discovered the situation and rescued her.

That is just how it is with Sasha. She's high strung and easily startled. The upside of being sensitive is that if someone can adjust their posture and way of moving, she warms up quickly. 

If none of this applies to your situation, I'm sorry for blabbing!  

I haven't read any of the responses yet, but having experience with shy/fearful animals, and through that, having talked at length with lots and lots of other people with shy dogs, I can relate.

The thing to keep in mind, when working with shy/fearful animals, is to accept them as who they are. And to realize that there are lots of shy dogs in the world that will never be "normal", no matter what type of work you do. It's part of who they are, and there is no leadership, classical conditioning, or medication that will magically turn these dogs into a "normal" dog. Some dogs will blossom more than others, but when working with fearful dogs, there really is no "one size fits all" answer. I have seen some very shy dogs who, when they found their right person, opened up in a number of months. I've seen other dogs that open up after a year, others after three years, and some that really never move beyond a certain point to where they are. It is very individual. I think one reason your trainer may have given three years as an idea so that:
a) You wouldn't get your hopes up too fast or push her into anything she can't handle
b) If, by three years' time, she still hasn't changed much, you have adapted to life with her, and obviously respect and love her for who she is.

The problem with shy/fearful dogs is that so many people have this undying notion that "If I can just do _____, she'll come around". Maybe for some types of dogs, but when it comes to shy/fearful dogs, it just doesn't happen that way. Some dogs do just have their limits. Period. People simply can't comprehend that they can't somehow make this dog into a normal dog - it just ain't gonna happen.  And that makes me feel bad, because then a lot of innocent shy/fearful dogs end up going from home to home to home, or taken and returned to the shelter, and live even more stressful lives because of people who just don't get what that dog is, and what it is in all its being.

I've seen this type of thing time and time again, and I experience those people every day of my life, since I have lived with a fearful dog for four years now, who at one time had extreme fears, which have thankfully been able to be helped dramatically. You have no idea how many people blatantly ignore my requests to "not touch my dog", or "She's fearful, and doesn't like to be touched". You get the "Oh, but all dogs love me". They don't much like it when I end up having to say "Well my dog doesn't". I completely understand the frustrations and stresses that living with a fearful dog brings, but I also totally have come to gain a new respect for the dog as an individual, and learning not only what animals are capable of, but also learning that animals have limits, no matter how much you "try" to change them. Animals can only work within the confines of their ingrained experience, but more importantly within the confines of their genetics. You cannot change the genes a dog has, so you learn to work within the dog that you have, and you learn to accept that you cannot control everything in this world, including the extent to which you can change canine behaviour.

So in regards to shy dogs and time, when people ask me, my answer is: Whatever the dog needs. That is the only answer that can really fit, because there really is no one size fits all.

Liesje, in terms of your situation specifically, you may never know what her deal is with hubby. All you need to know is that there is a deal, which you do. Sometimes it helps to understand why a behaviour is the way it is, and it can often help you learn to work within the confines of what you have, but sometimes you just don't know. I have had Gaci from birth, so I know her entire history, even her genetic lineage. But all that doesn't help the fact that I have this dog in front of me, and this is what I have to focus on, and while the past helps me understand why, it doesn't help me with the how. Does that make sense? Knowing her past doesn't help with how I have to help her learn to cope, or how I can help her develop confidence, how I can help her lessen her fear, and how I help her to live a happy and fulfilling life. Her fear affects her life, but it doesn't run her life, and I make sure to help her live her life to the fullest, and give her opportunities to be the amazing dog that I know she is.

There is an amazing Yahoo Group called Shyk9's, which is one of my favorite groups of all. I've been a member of it for a long time now, when I set out to help Gaci with her fears, it has been nothing but supportive and helpful. People are there to share your tears, your frustrations, to give advice, to congratulate you on successes and reflect on your mistakes. You can bounce ideas off them, and discuss with others, who have experienced what you have, and gather a growing knowledge base of working with this type of personality. I recommend this group to a lot of people with shy/fearful dogs, it's really a very helpful resource.

Handfeeding is a great bonding experience, if the dog is comfortable taking food from him.

If you're okay with it, and he's okay with it, and most importantly SHE is okay with it, I would use her meals (or part of it, since if she eats kibble being a GSD she likely eats quite a bit...lol), have him sit on the floor, and just feed her part of her meals, kibble by kibble, by hand. I wouldn't have him ask her to do anything whatsoever. Obedience is not the goal here, trust is. I would actually let her do anything she wanted as long as it was mannerly.

Has he tried clicker teaching her himself? Will she work for him at all? What if he taught her some really easy game? Clicker teaching is a bonding experience as well, and it contains classical conditioning properties as much as it does operant conditioning for tricks. Does he know how to use a clicker?

As I recommended to someone else recently, you could also teach her to "Go Visit", on cue. That can help to build trust and confidence, as going to "see" somebody becomes fun and games, rather than something frightening. If she's ready for it, you could try that as well.

And it's really actually a myth to believe that all fearful/shy dogs are the result of being abused or mishandled in some manner. Most people don't believe that anymore, as there are sooooooooo many reasons that dogs come to be the way that they are, abuse is only one of them, and thankfully the minority when it comes to shy/fearful dogs.

This might also sound out there--But, one of the things we both did when Willow first came to live with us was lay on the floor face up--like you are about to do sit-ups--and have her come over and sniff us and check us out.