Why This Surliness Towards Clickers (and other great questions)

DPU

Not sure why you would want to create or increase drive this way, since I think earlier you stated you were into Natural Dog Training.  I don't know much about Natural Dog Training but I do continuously bring in fosters and try and get their needs satisfied and placed in an order.   From your site reference, you utilized food and teasing in order to bridge the drive to a toy object.  I believe the drive for the objects was already there and would have come out in time but provided that food and treats were put in rightful place to satisfy hunger and taste enjoyment. 

Do you see another way to increase drive or interest without using food?

There are probably as many ways as there are dogs. With Trevor, if you showed him a toy he would turn his head away, or go lie down. He seemed determined not to express his drive in any way. Using food was a good shortcut in his case. Teaching him to speak on command is another tactic. And I have to tell you that one of the best ways to bring a shy dog out of his or her shell is to use the pushing exercise I described in that article. It's pretty amazing the kind of emotional balance it engenders. If you're interested, here's another blog article describing how and why it works so well: Swimming Upstream.

I hope this helps,

LCK

snownose

Thanks Ron......those are gorgous pics.....I can really see the different colors in his coat.......two things that pop out are his feet.....more Lab than Husky....and the smoothness of his coat, also very Lab like......but the different colors really show Sibe in him....

I would say that his dog looks 70% Lab, 30% husky

 

Lee Charles Kelley

If you're interested, here's another blog article describing how and why it works so well: Swimming Upstream.

Thanks and that was an interesting read.  And it so happens I have a dog aggressive foster dog in my home.  Very similar story to the two emails in your blog article.  Paganini, a very fitting name, was kicked out of 3 foster homes and the vet's kennel because of her aggression.  I took her in because the org had no place for her to go and I am set up to keep dogs separated for health and behavior reasons.  When I picked her up, the aggression was not an aggression I had seen before.  It can be best described as a panic uncontrollable aggression.  I introduced Pags to the full pack at the same time and she was ok, that is no fights.  I did a lot of things to integrate her into the pack by manipulating the environment and setting up social interactions.  She did very well here until I introduced a new foster into the pack.  The introduction went well but then it started to turn.  There was no fight but it surely was going to happen and from what I saw of Pags previous behavior, she would have been hard to stop if it started.  Again, I did things to manipulate the environment and set up social interactions but there has never been any direct contact except when I tested Pags with a muzzle on her.  Whatever I do to correct this, there will still be the matter of me trusting Pags when meeting new dogs.

Anyway, to keep on topic, with my past experience with Clicker Training and using that method on a true SA dog (made me very surly), I looked at other methods to make Pags comfortable when meeting new dogs.  I am trying to get through the 5 disc, 10 hours of Constructional Aggression Treatment, Shaping your way out of aggression.  I am having problems playing the disc and so far have only been able to view almost 2 disc.  So far it looks very promising and so far no Clicker.  I like what Dr. Jesus Rosales-Ruiz says and not so much Kellie Snider.

I am open to different ways to address aggession or any behavior problems.  I surely get my share of problems in taking in fosters and I get no background information on them at all.  I'll do the attraction-resistance exercise but honestly I see the exercise not directly addressing the issue of aggression.  And as I said there is the trust issue with me.  But the CAT approach is also indirect. 

DPU

I'll do the attraction-resistance exercise but honestly I see the exercise not directly addressing the issue of aggression.  And as I said there is the trust issue with me.  But the CAT approach is also indirect.

Yes, the pushing exercise doesn't seem to bear any direct relation to curing aggression, and yet it often does (as described in the e-mail I received from client, included in the article). It really works well with fear issues, and since all aggression is based on fear, it will help to a certain degree with your latest foster dog. However, it sounds like that dog might go into a kind of hyper-vigilant state around other dogs. So it's going to be harder to overcome that.

One thing that can help is to take him on long walks with another dog he wants to kill. You'll need to have an assistant, since it wouldn't be advisable to do it alone. But I think you'll find that if you take him on long walks with a number of different dogs, in as natural a setting as possible, that over time, his aggression will abate somewhat. Doing this won't cure the aggression; there are other exercises, like playing tug, that will though. But taking two aggressive dogs on a walk together not only tends to not only reduce their aggressive feelings for one another, it actually creates a feeling of camaraderie. That's one of the ways Cesar Millan is able to get a group of dog-aggressive animals to get along so well. (And it's why military units have their soldiers march in unison.)

Here's another link of mine that explains why walking two aggressive dogs together lessens their aggression:

"Walking Two Aggressive Dogs Together." 

By the way, I find it's always best to print these articles and read them from a hard copy in the real world rather than in cyber-space. At least for me I find I always get and retain more information that way.

Good luck,

LCK 

espencer

snownose

Thanks Ron......those are gorgous pics.....I can really see the different colors in his coat.......two things that pop out are his feet.....more Lab than Husky....and the smoothness of his coat, also very Lab like......but the different colors really show Sibe in him....

I would say that his dog looks 70% Lab, 30% husky

 

It is not unusual for dogs that are half lab to look quite labbish--the lab physical characteristics tend to be stronger in mixes than many other breeds.  Shadow would not need to be mostly lab to look it.

FWIW, he does not look extremely labbish to me.  I can see some in him, but I don't know that I'd call him a lab mix if i just saw him on the street. 

LCK, I've been browsing around your blogs because I find your ideas interesting and am somewhat surprised to discover how similar a lot of it is to the way I raised my wild hare. I find it astonishing, really, and kind of funny that I found my way to a lot of those techniques through a stupidly flighty, solitary prey animal rather than a dog. When I originally discovered how pliable and clever wild hares can be if you let them, I just about exploded with excitement at the thought of what a dog could do if I treated a dog the same way. If nothing else, you're giving me a lot of confidence in what I've been calling "the hare method" and my ability to apply it to a dog!

To stay on topic (kinda), while long walks with aggressive dogs can help, we did have a situation with Penny and a poorly socialised rescue in which they were great on walks, but the moment they were back in the yard, any level of violence was possible and would spring up out of nowhere with so little warning that we generally only had a few seconds max to defuse the situation before all hell broke loose and a trip to the vets was likely. I think dogs living together is a different thing to dogs learning to be nice to dogs they don't have to share a house/yard/family with. Penny and the rescue played pretty well together and enjoyed long, fun, stimulating walks, but we learnt that the chances of them living in harmony, or even in safety with one another, were pretty slim.

Okay, that wasn't really on topic at all. Let me try again. I've found it interesting and a little disappointing that I've been unable to find a way to help the hare using clickers. When he's living with me again, I'm going to give it a whirl in a pretty alternative way, I think, but whenever I've tried to talk about what I want to do with clicker people, they usually ignore me. I'm assuming because they don't really understand the situation or don't feel that they know enough about hares to comment. But they know more about clickers than I do and it's frustrating to me that they often don't look beyond obvious rewards like treats and play, or even praise. Some animals won't work for any of those things!

Although, this is a dog forum and I'm always talking about hares. Fair enough that no one wants to talk about my hare.  

espencer

I would say that his dog looks 70% Lab, 30% husky

And others have shared your opinion. And still others have thought him to be a wolf hyrid or wolf. And I have been able to determine that he is more Sibe than Lab, even if he doesn't look like Demon from "Snowdogs" or Jack from "8 Below." Locally, I've met a few owners of Sibes who can definitely see the Sibe in him. The only forum member who has met him in person (twice) is Schlep, who usually visits the nutrition section. Even then, Schlep limits his involvement out of professional courtesy, as he is a distributor of several fine foods such as Eagle Pack, etc.

Would you like me to send a voice recording for Paganini?

Lee Charles Kelley

Ron2: And, alas, your response did not adequately, to me, explain why a dog would generalize from one instance of a trauma, through just an energy exchange with the environment.

LCK: Again I think you have to look at in terms of how a dog is affected by a sudden shift of energy, a surge or a wave of it, if you will. If it really throws him off-balance, then when he's in a situation that creates the same surge, he'll respond accordingly. Some dogs are easily thrown off-balance emotionally. And to me it seems that to a dog there's usually a palpable, visceral feeling associated with that lack of emotional or energetic balance; it's like being caught in an undertow. The dog will do everything he can to restore his balance. Seen from this perspective, there's no need for an "if, then" proposition. That's all I'm saying. When the wave hits a second time, the dog responds, even if there's no discernible "reason" for him to do so. (In fact, there really can't be a reason for his behavior because that would require intellect.)

I can visualize the action of your response but it still doesn't explain to me. I also don't see it as disproving thought patterns in dogs. That is, I'm not sure dogs can't think. Granted, they may not have the same abstract thought or level thereof that we humans do. I also happen to think, for the most part, (my own theory, if you will) that there is no sharp dividing line between sapient and not sapient. It's a gradual thing. While you note that what I ascribe to the dog is based on my interpretation as a human, are you not also engaging in a human's concentric ego that states that only the human (and maybe a few other species, though not dog) is capable of whatever you mean by mental process? That is, because your dog doesn't speak the Queen's English isn't a sign that he/she can't think or have mental processes. I say this in spite of some good application of energy theory. And, by the way, my dog was able to tell the difference between English, Spanish, and German.  It seems to me that your energy theory sounds mostly attached to the non-linear dog theory (thanks for correcting my faux pas).

Thanks for fixing your prey drive link. What you call teasing is what nearly every other trainer I have ever read or known calls lure and reward. And is no better than what I did to achieve fetch, save that I mark the completed fetch with a sound that marks the end of the behavior and predicts the reward. "A rose, by any other name, would still smell as sweet." "Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto, let's call the whole thing off ..."

ron2

Would you like me to send a voice recording for Paganini?

Not sure if you have real experience with dealing with a true DA dog so I am not sure you would know what to say on the voice recording. 

DPU

ron2

Would you like me to send a voice recording for Paganini?

Not sure if you have real experience with dealing with a true DA dog so I am not sure you would know what to say on the voice recording. 

corvus

To stay on topic (kinda) 

ron2

Lee Charles Kelley

Ron2: And, alas, your response did not adequately, to me, explain why a dog would generalize from one instance of a trauma, through just an energy exchange with the environment.

LCK: Again I think you have to look at in terms of how a dog is affected by a sudden shift of energy, a surge or a wave of it, if you will. If it really throws him off-balance, then when he's in a situation that creates the same surge, he'll respond accordingly. Some dogs are easily thrown off-balance emotionally. And to me it seems that to a dog there's usually a palpable, visceral feeling associated with that lack of emotional or energetic balance; it's like being caught in an undertow. The dog will do everything he can to restore his balance. Seen from this perspective, there's no need for an "if, then" proposition. That's all I'm saying. When the wave hits a second time, the dog responds, even if there's no discernible "reason" for him to do so. (In fact, there really can't be a reason for his behavior because that would require intellect.)

I can visualize the action of your response but it still doesn't explain to me. I also don't see it as disproving thought patterns in dogs. That is, I'm not sure dogs can't think. Granted, they may not have the same abstract thought or level thereof that we humans do. I also happen to think, for the most part, (my own theory, if you will) that there is no sharp dividing line between sapient and not sapient. It's a gradual thing. While you note that what I ascribe to the dog is based on my interpretation as a human, are you not also engaging in a human's concentric ego that states that only the human (and maybe a few other species, though not dog) is capable of whatever you mean by mental process? That is, because your dog doesn't speak the Queen's English isn't a sign that he/she can't think or have mental processes. I say this in spite of some good application of energy theory. And, by the way, my dog was able to tell the difference between English, Spanish, and German.  It seems to me that your energy theory sounds mostly attached to the non-linear dog theory (thanks for correcting my faux pas).

Thanks for fixing your prey drive link. What you call teasing is what nearly every other trainer I have ever read or known calls lure and reward. And is no better than what I did to achieve fetch, save that I mark the completed fetch with a sound that marks the end of the behavior and predicts the reward. "A rose, by any other name, would still smell as sweet." "Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto, let's call the whole thing off ..."

Ron, I agree completely. Well said.

I have seen enough canine behavior over the years to believe that they are very capable of thought process and decision making. And while they can't speak our language, I have no doubt that their understanding of it is at a higher level than we will ever know. I've witnessed dogs that understood things spoken to them in ways that could only be explained on some sort of 6th sense level. I have seen dog's do things that absolutely cannot be a simple matter of energy.

corvus

LCK, I've been browsing around your blogs because I find your ideas interesting and am somewhat surprised to discover how similar a lot of it is to the way I raised my wild hare. I find it astonishing, really, and kind of funny that I found my way to a lot of those techniques through a stupidly flighty, solitary prey animal rather than a dog. When I originally discovered how pliable and clever wild hares can be if you let them, I just about exploded with excitement at the thought of what a dog could do if I treated a dog the same way. If nothing else, you're giving me a lot of confidence in what I've been calling "the hare method" and my ability to apply it to a dog!

This is great to hare! (Sorry, that was a typo I decided to keep.) I'd love to get an e-mail from you privately describing your "hare method!"

Yes, the energy theory doesn't apply just to dogs, it's just more apparent in dogs than in most other species. The idea is that all of nature below the level of conscious thought (humans, dolphins, & whales -- perhaps some apes) operates on a kind of emotional energy dynamic. With dogs, and I think to some extent horses, though I'm not a horse expert, there's such a deep emotional connection between these species with humans that we often see things that are often thought to be operating through a "6th sense" or through some higher thought process which isn't there. I would imagine that if you open up a conduit to any creature, based on trust and satisfying some basic needs, that this is possible.

In Sheldrake's book Dogs that Know When Their Owners Are Coming Home, he didn't just study dogs. There were cases of people who owned farm animals, sheep and pigs I think, who also displayed these telepathic abilitites. One rural English couple had a sheep that lived in the house with them! And she always knew when Daddy was coming home long before there was any physical evidence (sounds, smells) to give it away.

It sounds like your relationship with Kit would fall into that category quite easily.

LCK 

ron2

I also happen to think, for the most part, (my own theory, if you will) that there is no sharp dividing line between sapient and not sapient. It's a gradual thing. 

You're not alone in thinking that way. It's the difference between seeing intelligence as part of a continuum, and seeing it as coming in discrete chunks. The continuum theory kind of sees intelligence as being like water in a glass. A few drops and you've got a grasshopper, half full and you've got a dog or Paris Hilton, with a full glass and you've got Isaac Newton or Orson Welles. I see it more as a matter of different types of substances filling the glass, not how full or empty the glass is with just one substance. So I see it as being maybe rocks on the bottom, perhaps sand a little further up, maybe some tea leaves after that, then water, then whisky, then some ineffable substance that can't quite be defined.

I know some people are defensive of an animal's capabilities for thought, but the simple fact is, you've either got language or you don't. That's a biological fact. That's one very clear and specific dividing line. In The Symbolic Species (1997) Terrence Deacon, a neuroscientist at Boston University, writes, “Species that have not acquired the ability to communicate symbolically cannot have acquired the ability to think this way either.”  It’s apparent that dogs don’t communicate by using symbols, so according to Deacon they can’t possibly make symbolic references. That, in and of itself, is a  limiting factor in  regards to the dog's ability to engage in all kinds of higher dognitive functions.

The thing about dogs, at least from my perspective of actually studying cognitive science and certain related fields over the past 15 years or so, is that they're so smart and so clever with the kinds of dognitive abilities they actually do have, and the fact that there appears to be some underlying, lower-level functions such as pattern recognition that are like sub-routines or pre-cursors to logic and conceptualization, that it's quite easy for us to believe our dogs can think. But there's another dividing line besides language, which is an awareness of time. Logical thinking not only requires language, it requires chrono-logical thinking. When we see a dog pause while deciding which of two actions to choose, we often believe that that pause indicates he's engaging in a chronological and/or purely logical thought process; he's adding things up. That's because our brains are kind of designed to fill that empty space, that pause in the action, with our own thoughts. So we impute that ability onto the dog. What's really going on though, in that pause in the action, is more a matter of the dog's attraction building to a point that he takes a specific action based on his level of attraction (and other factors). He may make choices about things based on his level of energy flow, but those kinds of choices are not in the same ballpark as making logical decisions.

Anyway, that's how I see it,

LCK