Clicker training and bad habits?

DPU

Liesje

Honestly, if my dog was that young and the HD was so bad just basic movements were visibly causing the dog pain, I'd look into surgery or drastic treatments. 

That is not the situation and as far as I can tell the dog is in no pain because of my care and taking precautions.  Thats why I won't take the advise to go straight ahead and train the dog in basic obedience.  I am committed to prevent the pain, NOT test for pain.  Is that clear?  But the dog needs basic obedience.  So yes, tapping in the dog's motivators may or may not cause the excitement to trigger the pain.  At this time I am not prepared to test.

Fair enough.  You will avoid training in order to avoid pain.  But what does that have to do with clicker training? Why not clicker train using behaviors you have already observed not to cause pain?

I guess if I suspected doing basic obedience would actually cause pain, I'd still be seeing a specialist.  For a young dog to experience pain while doing sits, downs, or simply wagging it's tail sounds really, really severe to me.  Too severe to just work around.
 

Kim_MacMillan

Edit: And still no answer to the actual question. Reminds me of a conversation a few weeks ago, with the use of treats in dogs....I think there's a pattern developing.

Sorry can not give an answer back then because I was admonished by the Admin so I am not allowed to discuss food and training.  I am not sure why you have a strong obsessed need to know what behaviors I prioritize and feel as necessary.  Since it not important to me, it must be not important at all.

I am sure you have a lot of experience but not the kind that is useful to me and my foster dogs.  In your story of experience above, since you use the word "we" all the time that left me to interpret that it was not yours.

Anyway...

So has anyone else successfully used clicker training (or the basic principle) to solve "bad" habits?

I used capturing, rewarding and putting on cue for jumping up on me and spinning neurotically.  Ironically, I now use the "jump UP!" as a reward since Kenya likes it so much.  When she gets REALLY excited, she spins around like crazy, so last week we started with spinning right and left.  She's pretty much go it now.  This will be helpful in agility.  Many people use tight spins as a warmup or a way to see if the dog is showing signs of injury (won't spin in one direction, or the circles aren't as tight).
 

Liesje

DPU

Liesje

Honestly, if my dog was that young and the HD was so bad just basic movements were visibly causing the dog pain, I'd look into surgery or drastic treatments. 

That is not the situation and as far as I can tell the dog is in no pain because of my care and taking precautions.  Thats why I won't take the advise to go straight ahead and train the dog in basic obedience.  I am committed to prevent the pain, NOT test for pain.  Is that clear?  But the dog needs basic obedience.  So yes, tapping in the dog's motivators may or may not cause the excitement to trigger the pain.  At this time I am not prepared to test.

 

Fair enough.  You will avoid training in order to avoid pain.  But what does that have to do with clicker training? Why not clicker train using behaviors you have already observed not to cause pain?

I guess if I suspected doing basic obedience would actually cause pain, I'd still be seeing a specialist.  For a young dog to experience pain while doing sits, downs, or simply wagging it's tail sounds really, really severe to me.  Too severe to just work around.
 

Not avoid but understand how the training will effect the dog.  It has a lot to do with Clicker Training because the dog gets 'charged up' and excited if I was to start normal obedience training.  Which obedience behaviors in your judgement would not trigger pain,for sure.  I don't know any of this and once again, I want to avoid pain and train obedience.

It sound like you also are experiencing HD or at least the beginning signs of it.  Stage 2 is not severe pain but discomfort.  The dog does do a yelp when the dog tries to quickly rise from a sit.  Your comment on wagging the tail is just silly.

Liesje

So has anyone else successfully used clicker training (or the basic principle) to solve "bad" habits?

Most things I use the clicker for are to prevent bad habits....for instance my "Leave It" behaviour was taught with a clicker. "Off" was taught with a clicker. "Drop it" was taught with clicker principles but I didn't use a clicker for it (it was during tug/drive work and I didn't use a clicker to teach that particular thing, but it applies for anything that is in the mouth).

Hrm hrm....I used a clicker in conjunction with desensitization to fix Gaci's fascination with cars, as I have mentioned before. I have used the clicker for LLW (so solving pulling? Preventing pulling? Which do you call it? LOL!). I have been using the clicker principles minus the clicker to work on Shimmer's pawing for attention, as I've mentioned recently. Ummm.....I too use jumping up as a reinforcer, but I didn't really teach it to solve a problem, I just knew they liked doing it so when I want them to do it I invite them to.

Well, a huge aspect of Shimmer's work in helping her with her fear of strange dogs after her puppyhood trauma involved the clicker once we were past the C.C. stage and began working very close to (and off-leash) with strange dogs. So while I wouldn't call it a "bad habit" (it's hard to call emotional responses and fears bad habits), it was an important behaviour changing situation for her.

I've also done some work with Mojo, my Lovie, but since she's not a dog, I'll just leave it at that!

Personally I haven't found that clicker training makes a dog 'charged up' or over excited unless that is the response that I am looking for and marking.

I trained two Irish Wolf Hounds for a woman last year.  The 2 yr old neutered male had had no basic obedience due having had surgeries, although a lovely dog, he was a terrible puller and if he wanted to go check something out while on leash, he dragged his owner along with him.  He weighed more than she did lol.   I clicker trained him for loose leash heeling and for an 'off'.  Just using my clicker and a large flat collar.  We didn't want him to sit, he didn't offer it, I didn't train it.  For down, it was taught on his bed and with the clicker it didn't take many reps. for him to learn it.  He quickly progressed and learned the behaviours that the owner wanted without putting stress on him physically.

The other IWH was a female pup, she was very pushy and obnoxious, because of the rate of growth her training had to be limited to a max of 10 mins and that was with breaks.  She quickly learned to heel while off leash which transferred to on leash heeling, learned an 'off ' and to sit/down with a min of reps (trained on her dog bed).  She learned to focus and to remain calm.  All this was done in a very short period of time and the clicker was a huge benefit for her to learn everything without putting stress on her rapidly growing body.  And because I was marking the behaviours that I wanted instead of 'correcting' the behaviours that I didn't want, she learned quickly with a no mental stress either.

DPU

When the dog came to me that is what I see

I get it that you take in rescues that are a day away from being PTS, or whatever. I think the point others are trying to make is once you have determined that the dog has a physical defect, perhaps they should be seen by a vet to fully assess the problem.

ron2

DPU

When the dog came to me that is what I see

I get it that you take in rescues that are a day away from being PTS, or whatever. I think the point others are trying to make is once you have determined that the dog has a physical defect, perhaps they should be seen by a vet to fully assess the problem.

Good grief, there seems to be a quest to always seem to blame the dog owner who wants only the best for the dog and wants to proceed with caution and wants to understand the effects of a particular training method on the dog.  Defend the training method, minimize the dog's condition, blame the owner, that the message here.  It started off with me making a comment that Clicker Training may place the dog in an excited state and possibly cause pain due to HD condition.  Pretty simple concern and a very true statement.  When there is a possibly of pain, I proceed with caution and attempt to avoid pain.  The dog has been fully vetted and fully assessed for the HD and vetinary advise has been given to manage the condition.  The clues to let you know that is me stating this several times.  I think now the new point should be if you have no first hand experience then you should not comment and lead the owner into doing something that the owner does not want to do.  So far the only member I know on this forum that has actual experience with training a stage 2 HD dog is Nfowler.  She has knowingly taken in HD rescue dogs (no history knowledge) and has does wonders with them.  Sometimes as a courtesy, others should defer to the members with real experience because when there is a hint of lack of creditability, it makes the dog owner even more cautious.

DPU

corgipower

DPU

As the dog moves normally and sits normally, I can see discomfort.

DPU

That is not the situation and as far as I can tell the dog is in no pain because of my care and taking precautions.

I'm a little bit confused here...

Why would you be confused?  When the dog came to me that is what I see.  When I see something like that I act by managing the environment, the dog's movement, and medication.  Wouldn't you?  Those three things makes it better but the condition does not disappear.  Every day I learn something new through observations and as I keep saying I want to prevent and not test for pain.

But there are probably 4 or 5 behaviors I have to teach before COME can be worked on.   

DPU, I think you should demand a refund for your clicker class. This is just so incorrect. You can work on any behavior you want, in any order. You can completely skip behaviors- our local petsmart offers a "sit is optional" obedience class for rescued greyhounds, who apparently have trouble with that position due to their conformation.

Good grief, there seems to be a quest to always seem to blame the dog owner who wants only the best for the dog and wants to proceed with caution and wants to understand the effects of a particular training method on the dog.  Defend the training method, minimize the dog's condition, blame the owner, that the message here.  It started off with me making a comment that Clicker Training may place the dog in an excited state and possibly cause pain due to HD condition.  Pretty simple concern and a very true statement.  When there is a possibly of pain, I proceed with caution and attempt to avoid pain.

I don't think you understand our frustration at this position - we know what this method is capable of, and you are a novice at it, yet unwilling to listen to trainers and handlers who have first hand and ongoing experience with its benefits for the very type of dogs you work with.  First of all, clicker training is not the problem, even if a dog does get excited.  A dog can become excited during lure/reward training, correction-based training, e-collar training, or any other method of training, and it is often a matter of temperament and not just its anticipation of a food treat.  The method is not the issue - and is NOT the cause of the excitement. If we assume that reinforcement is anything the dog wants, then a dog can become excited about any reinforcer, whether it's food, a toy, the owner's attention...  I'm sure you aren't going to tell me that jerking a dog's neck is a better solution to the "how do I train a dysplastic dog" question. 

It is so easy, using some simple tricks of the trade right from the get go, to teach calm.  By not understanding that clicker training can do that for you, you are missing an opportunity to HELP dogs that might have a requirement that they limit activity to attain that level of serenity and self control.  You could be engaging the dogs' thought processes and ability to learn, even if it's simply to teach calm and self control - the mental stimulation of figuring out what you want can still help to mentally tire a dog that cannot be allowed to tire himself through physical roughhousing.  Rewarding the dog by allowing it to lap at a tupperware cup filled with peanut butter, instead of jumping to get a Charley Bear treat or a piece of roast beef, can help.  The dog is quieter when he is busy slurping the PB stuck to the roof of his mouth for a few seconds, and you can continue to C/T for that calm behavior.  What you reinforce is what you get.  If you do not reinforce activity, and you do reinforce quiet and calm, you will get quiet and calm. 

DPU

Liesje

DPU

Liesje

Honestly, if my dog was that young and the HD was so bad just basic movements were visibly causing the dog pain, I'd look into surgery or drastic treatments. 

That is not the situation and as far as I can tell the dog is in no pain because of my care and taking precautions.  Thats why I won't take the advise to go straight ahead and train the dog in basic obedience.  I am committed to prevent the pain, NOT test for pain.  Is that clear?  But the dog needs basic obedience.  So yes, tapping in the dog's motivators may or may not cause the excitement to trigger the pain.  At this time I am not prepared to test.

 

Fair enough.  You will avoid training in order to avoid pain.  But what does that have to do with clicker training? Why not clicker train using behaviors you have already observed not to cause pain?

I guess if I suspected doing basic obedience would actually cause pain, I'd still be seeing a specialist.  For a young dog to experience pain while doing sits, downs, or simply wagging it's tail sounds really, really severe to me.  Too severe to just work around.
 

Not avoid but understand how the training will effect the dog.  It has a lot to do with Clicker Training because the dog gets 'charged up' and excited if I was to start normal obedience training.  Which obedience behaviors in your judgement would not trigger pain,for sure.  I don't know any of this and once again, I want to avoid pain and train obedience.

It sound like you also are experiencing HD or at least the beginning signs of it.  Stage 2 is not severe pain but discomfort.  The dog does do a yelp when the dog tries to quickly rise from a sit.  Your comment on wagging the tail is just silly.

You could teach "wait."  Basically just asking the dog to wait to go out the door, get out of the car, eat, whatever.  Allow the dog to be in whatever position he wants to be in, just as long as he is waiting.  With Jack, sitting itself does not bother him (he has elbow dysplasia and has had a bone chip removed but still has damage to the joint), but sitting too long does--so if I want him to stay in a spot for more than a couple of minutes, I ask him to "down."  You could also ask your vet if there are any exercises specific to his condition that you can work on.  Jack's physical therapy vet told us to teach him to "shake" to built muscle around the bad elbow. 

DPU

I think now the new point should be if you have no first hand experience then you should not comment and lead the owner into doing something that the owner does not want to do.

I know a person here who has first-hand experience in just about any issue that is brought here and often has a difficult time being listened to because of politics and human idiosyncracies. So, while that might be ideal, it is not happening. Also, this is a public forum of opinion. There's a few people here who don't have dogs. And they have the right to post, as well. And I used to think that you had to own a sled dog to know what I am talking about, but I was wrong. I needed to learn the other perspectives to more fully understand mine, as some of the earliest info I had was from well-meaning sources that had also gotten it wrong.

I do defer to people with more experience and knowledge than I have and that gets me in trouble, too.

ron2

I know a person here who has first-hand experience in just about any issue that is brought here and often has a difficult time being listened to because of politics and human idiosyncracies. So, while that might be ideal, it is not happening. 

 

Sure and in some areas I have book knowledge and experience.  The experience gives me enough confidence to alter conventional professional advise.  Case in point, for my SA hound I followed Pat Mcc protocal in her book and then modified a section to do just the opposite.  It worked great for dog, me, and the environment that we lived in.   So many variables exist with the dog, the owner, and environment that applying a cookie cutting type training method can cause harm. 

It is one thing to represent yourself as having first hand experience and it is something else to actually have that experience.  IMO, a trainer's true real experience comes from the residence dogs and the practice of the training method.  If the trainer fosters shelter dogs, then the trainer is exposed to different and real behavior and medical condtions, thus increasing their experience exponentially. The foster dogs live with them.  The professional trainer who fosters and rehab dogs has high creditability in my book.