Clicker training and bad habits?

Clicker training doesnt "cause" anything.  The people using the strategies end up reinforcing behaviors they dont want due to poor timing and blame it on the technology..... This type of behavior (over the top food slathering goofballness) is the result of poor timing.  The dogs were reinforced for it,,, that is why it is there.

Kim_MacMillan

For HD dogs, for example, they will learn on their own how to sit comfortably, as they will do regadless of if you teach it. So in using a clicker, you can teach the dog to do a behaviour by allowing the dog to execute the behaviour on its own, to find the position that it prefers.

Although any training method would be applicable, but since you referred to Clicker, with my HD dog (again no prior history or training is known) I have noticed the 'get to the sit position' does change so the same path used before is causing discomfort now.  And its not so much the 'get to' but the 'get up' that is more pronounce.  Now I am not talking about excrutiating pain but a twinge that is very subtle and I do watch the dog closely.  It just seems to me that the advocates of this particular method connect food, happiness, excitement, and fast moves on the dogs.  And from class, there was a structure to be followed from setting up by marking the behavior and associating the click with a reward to getting the behavior on cue.  That is not what I want but you can not blame me for seeing this connection and taking it into consideration before basic obedience training starts.  So I agree with Lesjie in that you eliminate the behavior but still use your preferred training method.  Sit on command, I can eliminate.  COME, I can not.  But there are probably 4 or 5 behaviors I have to teach before COME can be worked on.   

DPU

Although any training method would be applicable, but since you referred to Clicker, with my HD dog (again no prior history or training is known) I have noticed the 'get to the sit position' does change so the same path used before is causing discomfort now.  And its not so much the 'get to' but the 'get up' that is more pronounce.  Now I am not talking about excrutiating pain but a twinge that is very subtle and I do watch the dog closely.  It just seems to me that the advocates of this particular method connect food, happiness, excitement, and fast moves on the dogs.  And from class, there was a structure to be followed from setting up by marking the behavior and associating the click with a reward to getting the behavior on cue.  That is not what I want but you can not blame me for seeing this connection and taking it into consideration before basic obedience training starts.  So I agree with Lesjie in that you eliminate the behavior but still use your preferred training method.  Sit on command, I can eliminate.  COME, I can not.  But there are probably 4 or 5 behaviors I have to teach before COME can be worked on.   

I'm not sure I'm understanding you here. "Sit" is a behaviour - the behaviour of bum on the ground. That's all it is. The only thing a clicker does is tell the dog when it has gotten there. It doesn't matter how the dog got there. You aren't clicking for "manner of sitting", you are simply clicking for the end behaviour. Some people with healthy dogs, do actually shape a particular "type" of sit - a straight sit, where the dog brings its rear to its front legs, where the dog backs into the sit (rock-back), etc. But for 99% of people it's simply the bum-on-the-ground that is what is important. And for something so broad there is no way a clicker can intefere with that or cause any undue pain. It wouldn't matter if the dog's "manner" of sitting changed 15 times in two years, the end behaviour is all that was clicker, not the method of sitting. So as long as the dog is always allowed to choose it's "path of sitting", there is no harm that can be done by simply marking the resulting behaviour. After all, you are reinforcing the bum-on-ground, not the way-in-which-dog-bends-to-sit. They actually considered two different types of behaviours.

FourIsCompany

I started teaching her to touch it with her paw. After a few repetitions, I noticed that her leg looked very awkward when reaching for the object and after a few more tries (with both paws) realized that she was doing it really fast in order to get her foot back on the ground and stabilize herself. I decided it wasn't important enough for me to take the chance that her elbows may also be giving her trouble and lifting her right paw might be hurting her left elbow.

Right there is something I want to highlight that was also described in other scenarios in another thread and was subsequently side-stepped for other purposes, and I'm not talking about you, Carla. What you have done, in this description, is what any good trainer would do. In the process of training, you keenly observed a physical defect and elected not to proceed along that particular path. A good trainer, such as you, will notice, as quickly as you did, that the dog has something wrong physically and will not proceed. And, as you pointed out, the clicker method is not responsible for the physical pain, the targeted move was. And you changed that.

Kim_MacMillan

After all, you are reinforcing the bum-on-ground, not the way-in-which-dog-bends-to-sit. They actually considered two different types of behaviours.

That may be my problem here.  I don't want to reinforce the sit, I don't care if a dog sits.  I only care about certain behaviors.  I don't want to inadvertently create a default behavior and I don't want the dog to feel obligated to sit.  I don't want the dog to offer the behavior either.  I want to assist the dog so that the little pings that I detect will not become big pings. 

DPU

That may be my problem here. 

What problem? The sit is just an example, explaining why teaching sit via a clicker does not cause pain. It was actually your example, which I simply kindly tried to address back to you since HD can potentially cause issues with the manner of sitting.

DPU

I only care about certain behaviors. 

Then please bless us by actually telling us which behaviours you care about! Instead of dancing around the rose bush, why don't we just all fall down so we can actually be on the same page!

It's easy to sit back and say why the clicker causes pain, when in fact when we give an example of how it doesn't, with your example of a sit, and then you comment back that you don't care about the sit. Then what is it you care about, and why do you feel somehow that it causes pain in your HD dog? Please explain, because you are just drawing lines over lines over more lines, and I don't even know what point you are trying to make anymore, nor do I think you know what point you are trying to make either. I'm beginning to question whether or not there is a point, because every time I try to address a point you change it to a new point, and that point is beginning to dull quickly!

Kim_MacMillan

What problem? The sit is just an example, explaining why teaching sit via a clicker does not cause pain. It was actually your example, which I simply kindly tried to address back to you since HD can potentially cause issues with the manner of sitting.

It's easy to sit back and say why the clicker causes pain, when in fact when we give an example of how it doesn't, with your example of a sit, and then you comment back that you don't care about the sit.

Actually you agree with my main point by saying in another thread "There's no doubt that clicker teaching puts most dogs in a happy mood, but it doesn't necessarily make the dogs frantically excited or move in "unnatural" ways."  Although you said "happy mood", I think that translates into excitement and movements.  Not "frantically" or "unnatural", just normal happy movements.  That by itself can trigger pain for a HD dog.  And if you have no history with the dog, it is not very prudent to forge ahead and apply training methods.

I don't have experience teaching a HD dog basic obedience.  As the dog moves normally and sits normally, I can see discomfort.  I am manageing the environment, the dog's movements, and medication.  If it sounds like I am "drawing lines over lines...etc" that is because I want to proceed cautiously and I want to prevent pain not test for pain.

Now I need to ask if you have trained one of your own stage 2 HD dogs basic obedience.  It is one thing to instruct based on book understanding just as it is another thing to actually train a neighbor's special needs dogs, but the dog that lives with you, you actually feel the pings of pain.

Honestly, if my dog was that young and the HD was so bad just basic movements were visibly causing the dog pain, I'd look into surgery or drastic treatments.  Many HD dogs compete in agility with no pain.  A dog can be dysplastic and never show signs until extreme old age.  Personally, I'm not totally comfortable with having a dog with a pre-existing condition doing agility so Coke won't be doing that type of training, but if I ever see him showing me signs of pain just standing around in his intermediate obedience class, I'd take him to a specialist and look into options.  That sounds horrible for a young dog to endure.  I know a 10 year old HD great dane that does sloooooooow sits (the owner is a trainer and doesn't ask the dog for sits, but sometimes she sits on her own) and needs assistance standing up, but she is near the end of her life and already had surgeries. 

Liesje

Honestly, if my dog was that young and the HD was so bad just basic movements were visibly causing the dog pain, I'd look into surgery or drastic treatments. 

That is not the situation and as far as I can tell the dog is in no pain because of my care and taking precautions.  Thats why I won't take the advise to go straight ahead and train the dog in basic obedience.  I am committed to prevent the pain, NOT test for pain.  Is that clear?  But the dog needs basic obedience.  So yes, tapping in the dog's motivators may or may not cause the excitement to trigger the pain.  At this time I am not prepared to test.

DPU

Although you said "happy mood", I think that translates into excitement and movements.  Not "frantically" or "unnatural", just normal happy movements. 

Well you translate differently than I do. Happy means bright eyes, ears forward, wagging tail, attentive to you, relaxed. A dog doesn't even have to be moving to be happy, so I'm not sure why you equate happiness with movements. Happiness is an emotion (rather, "joy" is a more appropriate term for the emotion). Emotions aren't movements, you can be happy without moving a muscle.

DPU

Now I need to ask if you have trained one of your own stage 2 HD dogs basic obedience.  It is one thing to instruct based on book understanding just as it is another thing to actually train a neighbor's special needs dogs, but the dog that lives with you, you actually feel the pings of pain.

Let's see....I did live with a Cairn Terrier for 12 years, who at four months of age required surgery on its knee for debilitating pain and problems, who shouldn't even have had these issues, and who lived with the issues from it for the rest of his life. Spent a long time helping to swim that dog in a bathtub and at the beach to help him regain muscle. And yes, that dog learned a whole repertoire of behaviours, even into old age when the dog decided to change the way it sat, or the way it laid down, or the speed with which it did behaviours - all which was perfectly acceptable. But it didn't hinder the dog's "ability" to do the behaviours with which we asked, and obviously we didn't ask for behaviours that caused pain to the dog. The only thing I look back on and wish now was that we did know about clickers, at that time we used lure/reward techniques, which worked well but the dog always needed the lure (not cookie, but the hand movements itself as the cue). That's just one dog, and it wasn't HD, but growing up in the Labrador world I assure you I know just a *little bit* about HD, thanks. I probably learned more about hips and how to read a hip xray of dogs before I even know what an xray machine really did and how it worked. It'll be nice someday when you stop throwing out the "book understanding" because it's truly beginning to feel a little old. Perhaps someday you'll come to understand that there are other people in this world who have dealt with dogs with real issues, and that you are not the only one *discovering* how to work with certain types of animals. Until then, I guess we have to keep proving ourselves to you as though we actually have something we need to prove, so that the silly accusations of "book smarts vs. experience" will become extinct.

And you still refuse to answer exactly what behaviours you are expecting of this dog, that in using a clicker will somehow cause pain. These red herrings are starting to blind me........

DPU

As the dog moves normally and sits normally, I can see discomfort.

DPU

That is not the situation and as far as I can tell the dog is in no pain because of my care and taking precautions.

KMac, funny how you resort to criticizing me and  attempt to minimize the foster dog's issues...when you don't have direct experience with the issue at hand.  I don't think you are irresponsible in these matters but I think you do not know any better.  I am going to leave you with my understanding that everything you state is from the book of pages and will be considered accordingly.  And when you do have real issues, I hope that you will share with us.

corgipower

DPU

As the dog moves normally and sits normally, I can see discomfort.

DPU

That is not the situation and as far as I can tell the dog is in no pain because of my care and taking precautions.

I'm a little bit confused here...

Why would you be confused?  When the dog came to me that is what I see.  When I see something like that I act by managing the environment, the dog's movement, and medication.  Wouldn't you?  Those three things makes it better but the condition does not disappear.  Every day I learn something new through observations and as I keep saying I want to prevent and not test for pain.

DPU

KMac, funny how you resort to criticizing me and  attempt to minimize the foster dog's issues...

Criticize you? No, only addressing an issue that is getting very old, which is your typical excuse every time somebody does share an "experience" that you think is unique to your situation. Minimizing the foster's issues? I would never do such a thing.

DPU

...when you don't have direct experience with the issue at hand.

Say....what? Didn't I just provide an example? Including one of a dog that had much more painful and debilitating issues, from puppyhood? I'm sorry I don't have hours to spend trying to prove myself, I have a job (now two actually), full-time university, real dogs to fit in there, and occasionally I need to sleep, and sneak some food here and there. I'm sorry I can't sit here and type pages and pages of "experience" to try to accomodate some inner need that you have. And I don't care to. I know my experience, I share it when applicable, and I HAVE shared it. If you choose not to believe it, it's your perogative.

DPU

I am going to leave you with my understanding that everything you state is from the book of pages and will be considered accordingly.  And when you do have real issues, I hope that you will share with us.

Yep, because all the experience I have shared thus far with this group, for good and bad, sharing my own dogs' issues and things I have worked through, are all made up....gotcha. I read it all from a book. You caught me. Glenda, I'm coming to join you shortly. Room for two (and a bunch of invisible dogs)?

Edit: And still no answer to the actual question. Reminds me of a conversation a few weeks ago, with the use of treats in dogs....I think there's a pattern developing.

Final edit: I feel as though I'm taking part in a bad habit myself, one that I've been telling myself I wouldn't do. When the topic returns to the relevant issues, I'll hop back in. As far as I'm concerned the other conversations are over, and there shall be no more replies from me. My apologies to everyone for keeping it up this long, I should've bowed out long ago.