Clickers for the surly

LOL That's too funny! My name is Carla and I am "surly" about using the clicker!

But I'm doing it anyway! I am using it with 2 dogs regularly so far. Jaia and B'asia. Cara is highly food motivated, so she picked it up right away and with her, it's mostly a game for fun and food. I haven't had much of an opportunity to work with Mia yet as it's a bit difficult to get the dogs separated at certain times during the day without a whinefest distracting those who want to work.

But just today, I started with Jaia outside for the first time. He's picked up everything inside, so I want to work with him outside, too. What I'm working on with him are focus and free-heeling. They kind of go together. A heeling video.

I'm starting with Jaia and then I'll bring B'asia in later when Jaia has taught me how to do it! LOL   

I'm not at all surly about using a clicker. I use a clicker for Ares to teach his tricks - sneeze, bang, wave,, shake, crawl, crawl backwards. He has far too much other training already on him to use a clicker for teaching regular obedience stuff. I don't generally use a clicker with Morgan, but I have on occasion. I basically don't do much in the way of any training with Morgan because she taught me that she is better being left to her own plans. As long as she comes when she's called and lays down on command, I'm happy with her.

I do use a clicker with Tyr and Nyx. I use it for fine tuning Tyr's position and also to try to get him to loosen up a bit. The only behavior he ever offers though is a sit stay with focused attention. Twice - over the course of two years he actually offered a down after the sit didn't get rewarded. I made a huge fuss over him, but he still doesn't offer it. Nyx was unreceptive to clicker training until a few corrections, and there still are times when she needs corrections to remind her of her manners before we can get going with clicker training. She has learned focused attention with the clicker, but she isn't able to maintain it for long. She also is getting a better heel position, and more willing to do a down. My next plan is to fix her fronts and also to work on longer stays and to not need the initial click when she first looks at me - if she doesn't get that, she'll immediately look away and then head off to see what she can get into elsewhere. If she gets that first click, then she maintains desired behaviors a lot better.

I use clickers, I don't use clickers exclusively.

corgipower

Nyx was unreceptive to clicker training until a few corrections, and there still are times when she needs corrections to remind her of her manners before we can get going with clicker training.

That brings up another subject: Using corrections while using the clicker. Does anyone else do this? I use very light corrections while clicking if necessary and I find it helps Jaia stay focused. I actually don't know if they're even considered "corrections" but I think so. I am also very exuberant about the praise as I don't want food to be the only reward.

corgipower

She has learned focused attention with the clicker, but she isn't able to maintain it for long. She also is getting a better heel position, and more willing to do a down.

That's cool. I find Jaia is getting a little better every day. Today, in the kitchen, I was slicing some cheese and I noticed him sitting at my side. I looked down and instead of drooling over the cheese, he was LOCKED onto my eyes! LOL He got cheese. To get him to maintain the focus, I just wait an instant longer before clicking. I extend the time he has to focus before getting the click.

 For a second there I was like "surly? My rabbit is surly about clicker training!".

Well, my rabbit is surly about most things, not just clicker training. I had resolved to do some clickering with her because it helped so much when she was still planning to take over the world and kill all humans when she did. She still plans to take over the world, but now she's going to keep some human body slaves around for menial tasks. We're having a bit of a battle about who calls the shots and who works for whom, here. Bonnie thinks I work for her for free and I keep trying to tell her she works for me and I pay her in craisins. Bonnie thinks even taking a craisin from me is a big favour on her part and I should be kissing her feet for the honour.

Anyway, I keep putting it off because when she's in a good mood, she just wants us to pat her all the time, and we're so excited about her inviting herself into our laps and nudging us for pats that we just want to soak it up. Besides which, she seems to have this weird thing going on where she's too over-stimulated outside her hutch to be very interested in even her most favourite treats. And if I try in her hutch, there's not really enough room to do much, or she just runs into her bedroom and stamps her feet because she doesn't feel like talking to me.

So that's the extent of my clicking at the moment. I'm feeling disenchanted with it. I can't use it with my dog because she's TOO food motivated, I can't use it with my hare because he's too moody and won't work for anything (because he's a spoilt brat and he knows he'll get whatever he wants if he asks), and the one animal I have that actually lives with me and I have had some clicker success with in the past is possibly slightly insane and has decided stamping her feet is the way to get what she wants whatever obscure thing that is, and she doesn't approve of humans making her perform for the treats that are rightfully hers for free.

I'll get back to you when I get an animal that clicker training is actually suited to. And here I was arguing it could be used on any animal. Sure. Any animal that hasn't already bound you to their will and found a way to make you do whatever they want you to! Bonnie's been training me for the past year or so. She's very good at it. She should write a book.
 

God help me, reading your post Corvus has me wanting to clicker with my genuinely surly cats,  but I don't have that kind of time right now. Poor neglected kitkats. I think they'd be hard to clicker train, as they are really aloof and in their own cat world as it is. A good challenge. :)

I've had the best luck clicker training my occasionally surly daughter, with mnm's. She finds it hilarious, and I find it amusing to weird out my husband who's reaction to that is "whaaaa?"  

I've been doing a small (very small, because I'm NOT sure what I need to be doing, and I hate to screw it up) amount of dumbbell work, with the clicker. Mostly, I'm just making the dumbbell something that is liked, instead of hated (OMG MOM I can't believe you want me to PLAY with that hard, no-smell-good toy! I AM INSULTED!). It's working. She'll bring it to me, now, and wag her tail, while she's doing it. She doesn't love it enough to dive in the water after it, or anything, but that's ok. 

Dog_ma

I've had the best luck clicker training my occasionally surly daughter, with mnm's. She finds it hilarious, and I find it amusing to weird out my husband who's reaction to that is "whaaaa?"  

My husband is a little weirded out about me using the clicker on the dogs. He doesn't like it (for the same reasons I haven't in the past) and doesn't see the point of the dogs touching something with their noses or paws. When I explain further, his eyes glaze over. Once I get Jaia to free-heel, I think he'll see the point better, but he might ask, "Why don't you just put a leash on him"? Which, since we're not in competition, is a valid question. My answer will be, "Because this is cool". He's a software engineer. He should be able to understand that.  

FourIsCompany

My answer will be, "Because this is cool". He's a software engineer. He should be able to understand that.  

FourIsCompany

corgipower

Nyx was unreceptive to clicker training until a few corrections, and there still are times when she needs corrections to remind her of her manners before we can get going with clicker training.

That brings up another subject: Using corrections while using the clicker. Does anyone else do this? I use very light corrections while clicking if necessary and I find it helps Jaia stay focused. I actually don't know if they're even considered "corrections" but I think so. I am also very exuberant about the praise as I don't want food to be the only reward.

corgipower

She has learned focused attention with the clicker, but she isn't able to maintain it for long. She also is getting a better heel position, and more willing to do a down.

 

That's cool. I find Jaia is getting a little better every day. Today, in the kitchen, I was slicing some cheese and I noticed him sitting at my side. I looked down and instead of drooling over the cheese, he was LOCKED onto my eyes! LOL He got cheese. To get him to maintain the focus, I just wait an instant longer before clicking. I extend the time he has to focus before getting the click.

corgipower

The situation is dynamic, and so are my tools and my usage of them.

I think this is an important statement (for me, anyway). When I go into a session, I don't have a firm idea of how it's going to look. Jaia and I are working together and since he has free will, I'm not sure what moves he's going to be making or how engaged he is or whatever, so I have to work with him. I'm not at all in control of the situation. Both of our personalities are working together. So, it's dynamic as you said, and I feel I must be willing to properly respond to his decisions.

I'm not willing to let him be hungry and use that to gain his cooperation. If he's willing to train, it's going to be because it's fun and there's "extra" goodies in it for him, not because he's hungry.  

corgipower

With Nyx, I truly only have half an instant to get that first click in before she gives up on me.

Just wondering... Do you have  book? And, yes, I think once she gets the idea, she'll be willing to hold it.  

FourIsCompany

Just wondering... Do you have  book?

I like this site.  And Click for Joy is the only real clicker-specific book I have. If you have several books to get, half.com is a great place to get them. Most info I have used, I got from those 2 sources.

As for using clickers and corrections, yes. I do that. Why only rely on one tool?

because using corrections messes up your ability to use the clicker to its full potential. You want a dog who is willing to freely offer endless numbers of behaviors, which means you cannot ever correct the dog for offering a behavior during a training session, even if it's not the behavior you want today. You might want it tomorrow, and you want your dog to believe that fully. And you cannot achieve that goal if you use corrections. Some dogs may be more resilient to the simultaneous use of corrections, but most become inhibited to varying degrees. And of course you won't believe me, most likely because you've never met a highly "operant" dog. If you abandon the corrections and work at rewarding freely offered behavior, you can get a dog who has several hundred behaviors, involving all parts of his body, that he will freely throw at you whenever you start a training session, and all you have to do is pick one and then shape it, and you've got your new "trick" well-started in under five minutes.

It's also a bad idea to use praise as a clicker-reward. To build the intense value of a click you should use something the dog is really over-the-top eager to earn. Toys, food usually work for most dogs. Once you've taught the behavior, you can and should begin to substitute praise, but only after putting your clicker away.

mudpuppy

You want a dog who is willing to freely offer endless numbers of behaviors, which means you cannot ever correct the dog for offering a behavior during a training session, even if it's not the behavior you want today. You might want it tomorrow, and you want your dog to believe that fully.

It's also a bad idea to use praise as a clicker-reward. To build the intense value of a click you should use something the dog is really over-the-top eager to earn. Toys, food usually work for most dogs. Once you've taught the behavior, you can and should begin to substitute praise, but only after putting your clicker away.

As for corrections, I can promise you that tomorrow I will not want the behaviors I correct for either. I do not ever want my dog lunging at squirrels, cats, small dogs, small children. I do not ever want my dog biting me. I do not ever want my dog bouncing off the counters and tables. I do not ever want my dog chewing on electrical cords. If that requires her becoming inhibited, than inhibited is fine. I also don't want my dog standing if I told him to sit. With my dogs, I can correct for the stand in that instance, and they will have no problem with offering a stand when not under a command or with giving a stand when asked for it. As for praise, I don't use praise as a clicker reward. I use food for that, and occasionally a toy for it. I use praise in conjunction with clicker training as well as in conjunction with corrections. Tyr thinks "good" is a marker word, which most likely goes back to the way I used praise in his foundation training. Ares thinks "good" is a release word, because my praise is almost as enthusiastic as when I use a release word. Using praise as a clicker reward seems is a bit of a redundancy for my dogs.

**corgipower is surly**