CT a food obsessed dog?

you've accidently taught her that the way you get food is by sitting. She clearly hasn't a clue about what the clicker actually means; it has nothing to do with her "food obsession" which sounds like perfectly normal "food motivated" dog behavior to me, a perfect candidate to become a highly skilled highly motivated clicker-dog. I would suggest hiding some food in your pocket and strolling up to an object, say a bucket or traffic cone. Most likely she'll at least glance at the object, and when she does, click and treat. And walk away so she can't freeze into a sit, then circle and come back, and repeat. Eventually she'll catch on that she can get food for offering other behaviors besides sitting. Or, if she knows a few commands already like down or come, you can "charge" the clicker by asking for a down, click and treat. If she likes toys you can certainly offer her toys for a click, but you'll get in fewer clicks per session, which is fine but slows down the training.

corvus

Is there another reward you can fire out fast paired with a click that isn't food of any type?    

I have never really brought into the idea that timing of click/reward is extremely important.  Behavior-Click, yes but not Click-reward.  Dogs are patient and they know way way in advance they are going to get the reward or not.  Use affection.

DPU

corvus

Is there another reward you can fire out fast paired with a click that isn't food of any type?    

I have never really brought into the idea that timing of click/reward is extremely important.  Behavior-Click, yes but not Click-reward.  Dogs are patient and they know way way in advance they are going to get the reward or not.  Use affection.

Yes, the behavior-click timing is far more important, but the click-reward only works if the clicker is charged in the first place.  In order to establish that the click is the "yes" and gets the reward, you have to be able to charge your clicker with the reward, like doing 30 rapid fire click-rewards in less than a minute.  Once that's established, then I think the rewards can vary and don't have to happen immediately (hence the point of the click).  For example, I'll click Kenya on the agility course AS she goes over the jump correctly, but she doesn't get the reward at that moment, she has to clear the jump, turn in the right direction, and get back to me.  And right now she is learning to run out and around various objects, so she gets a click as she is going around the object, but then has to come back to me for the reward.  However, I always start by charging the clicker, just clicking and rewarding over and over 30 times or so, takes less than a minute.  She has to know what the click means in order for it to work.

I guess you could try a toy depending on the dog's drive and how quickly he responds to the toy? Or, just charge the clicker using food and then use something else as the reward.  As long as the dog knows the click is the affirmation of doing the right thing and earning the reward, it doesn't really matter what the reward is. 

 The principle behind clicker training is that the click predicts a reinforcer.  For most dogs, affection just doesn't cut it - not that they don't like affection, but it is vague and not always delivered the same way, plus some dogs don't necessarily care for it the way we offer it, at least not enough to consider it a really cool paycheck.  For dogs that are extremely food motivated (and those are the dogs I love to train), I use a less desirable treat, like bits of Cheerios, or the dog's regular kibble, for most things.  For difficult behaviors, I might up the ante and use real meat or liver brownies.  But, the secret of not having the dog obsess is not to show the dog any food in the first place.  Prior to your training session, hide some little tupperware cups of Cheerios around the house, say up on the fridge or in a cabinet, and when you click, take the dog with you quickly to get the treat.  The click ends the behavior, so if you have charged the clicker, and made the dog aware of what it means, your dog will have little difficulty figuring out what the click was for.  I like mudpuppy's suggestion and would try that.  It sounds like you have shown the dog the food in advance of the behavior just a bit too often.  Keep the food out of sight and produce it only after you click for a behavior.  For dogs that nip at you in expectation, you can use a small cup filled with peanut butter as the reinforcer.  Out it comes from behind your back, and the dog laps - a bit of the PB gets on to the roof of her mouth and so she is kept busy for a second until you get re-situated for the next rep.

spiritdogs

the secret of not having the dog obsess is not to show the dog any food in the first place. 

But once they get a C/T for one behavior, the jig is up. They know there's food now. Another repetition is going to be made because there's food available. Right? What am I missing?

FourIsCompany

spiritdogs

the secret of not having the dog obsess is not to show the dog any food in the first place. 

 

But once they get a C/T for one behavior, the jig is up. They know there's food now. Another repetition is going to be made because there's food available. Right? What am I missing?

If they repeat it, then they've figured it out and it's a win-win.  I think most clicker people (whatever they like to be called, lol) use the clicker to shape new behaviors, not so much constantly reinforce behaviors the dog has already learned. 

Liesje

I have never really brought into the idea that timing of click/reward is extremely important.  Behavior-Click, yes but not Click-reward.  Dogs are patient and they know way way in advance they are going to get the reward or not.  Use affection.

There actually has been a lot of work done investigating the difference in timing between the click and the treat. It has been tested in varying the time, from something like 0.333 seconds (that's I think what the Baileys routinely used) to 30 seconds or longer, and there were indeed differences observed between the effectiveness of the clicker.

If the clicker is used as a bridge, such as in Liesje's example, the dog will return immeidately for the reward, so it is delayed, but only because there is physical distance between the area of marking and the area of reward.  Or if the dolphin is clicked while mid-air, it has to land first, but it receives its reward right away. But if your dog is sitting in front of you, and you click, there can be a difference between you fumbling in your pocket for 20 seconds and reaching into a jar and grabbing one immediately. There is a lot to be said for executing good reward-delivery time, and doing it properly (not too soon - stuffing food in while clicking, and not too late) can effectively improve teaching on your part and learning on the dog's part. Consistency is always best to strive for.

Thanks guys, this is an interesting topic.

Firstly, truly, Penny is food obsessed. She does know other behaviours to sit (that I haven't taught her with food) and will offer them if sit isn't working to get the food. If she knows the food isn't actually for her, she'll sit and stare until several minutes after it is all gone. If she knows the food is for her, she'll sit, then speak, then go insane and jump up and down and try sitting again, but speaking at the same time and if I wait long enough, she'll either explode or actually listen to me long enough to hear what I want her to do. Well, I haven't seen her explode yet, but she looks like she will if I don't get the food to her somehow very soon. It doesn't matter what value the food is. If it's in my hand, it's got to be something thoroughly amazing, even if it's an apple core - which she doesn't even really like. Maybe I could get through to her with the food. My mother and I between us did end up getting her to lie down for food, but she has to be lured every single time. She knows what the command means when there's no food around, but when there is food around, she forgets and has to be reminded. Every time. Same with gentle. Since she was a puppy she's been taught she doesn't get the food if she's going to snatch and take your fingers as well, but you still have to remind her every single time. My old housemates wouldn't put their fingers anywhere near her mouth when they were giving her something, but if you say "gentle" first, she won't snatch. Most of the time. If you don't say it, she will try to snatch.

So even if I could conceivably get through to her with food, I don't want to. She's a pain in the butt over food and I get annoyed with her when she gets silly about it. Every other dog that's come through our house will patiently try to understand what the people want from them to get the food, but Penny is so frenzied about it that she just never calms down when it's there. I've always used affection as a reward in the past because she gets "good girl" and likes to hear it and get a pat, but she is calm enough to actually learn if all it is is affection. I'm not sure affection would work with the clicker, but maybe I should give it a go. It is a bit vague, though.

I don't think the toy will work. Apart from being 12 years old and a bit "been there, done that" about a lot of toys, she won't be into a toy every time I pull it out. It might work once she's out of my parents' house, but at the moment she doesn't want to play with toys because as soon as she starts playing with a toy, Jill the play monster comes over wanting it and Penny can't be bothered putting up with her and within ten minutes Jill has destroyed the toy forever.

I'm just really reticent to use food with her. She gets so silly I don't think it's worth it. Not when she's already a beautifully behaved dog and I don't have anything specific I want to train. Getting out the treats always turns into a frustrating headache. I don't have the patience to wait for her to start using her brain. Maybe I could charge the clicker with food, then use a different reward for actual training? See what I'm worried about is that if I do that, she'll think the click means food and then I'll still end up with a dog too fixated to really learn anything.

Well, I don't have the same posting style as DPU and we have different voice timbres but let me give it a try. You may have the type of dog that responds more calmy to affection, just as plenty of dogs would rather work for the food. In which case, try the affection. Shadow will audition for the Bolshoi Ballet for meat. But give him a beefhide or rawhide and you and the rest of the world cease to exist unless he thinks you want to take that beefhide away. So, I will trade to get the beefhide away, which works because I am the source of all rewards. I think this is a case where a lesser value reward works better.

I also think Mudpuppy made good points. And either treat value may require patience.

corvus

I've always used affection as a reward in the past because she gets "good girl" and likes to hear it and get a pat, but she is calm enough to actually learn if all it is is affection. I'm not sure affection would work with the clicker, but maybe I should give it a go. It is a bit vague, though.

That is really good to hear.  I have crossed over to using affection and it has really work out great.  This is one of the reason I discount the timing requirement in favor of using trust.  Now I don't go overboard in training and just keep to basic obedience with the fosters.  And above all the best I can do for the fosters is build a relationships, a strong bond, and trust (in a short period of time).  If you go that route then I would put food where it is suppose to be, served at meal time and snack time with no expectation of offered behavior.    For my next foster, I am going to train using the clicker and the reward will be affection.  There are so many different levels and intensities that affection can be expressed by the human to the dog.  Like a smorgaboard or a buffet ranging from desserts to salads.

I would stop rewarding this dog for sitting with food. She sits, you walk away. If and only if she sits on command, you can praise. She sounds like she'd be a really fast learner, being so food motivated, if you can just break this cycle and convince her other behaviors pay off more than sitting. Instead of doing formal behaviors, keep treats and clicker on you at all times, and any time you catch her doing something you like that isn't a sit, click once, and treat once, and then go about your business. You may see an "extinction burst" where she will sit, sit, sit, even more, but that just means she's about to get over this problem.

It's interesting that I'm getting quite different suggestions.

I'm half inclined to forget about it. Like I said, she's an old dog and I don't even have anything I want to teach her. However, if I forget about it I'll never know if clickering can make this food obsession less of an obsession, or if it will just make her silly about the clicker as well as food. I think once she comes to live with me again, she'll be away from the other dogs and usually on her own food is not as big a deal. I'll try with the food and see how it goes. If it's just too hot and I'm not coping, I'll forget about it and next time clicker train with a non-food reward.

DPU, while I don't agree with your view on food, I do think there is something in what you say about food as a reward, evidenced by the fact that I have never really used food to teach Penny something and have found that to be much more relaxing. I think with my next dog, I'm going to go somewhere down the middle and use affection as a reward for everything but essential things that must be obeyed every time. Then it'll be the most amazing tasty treats I can find. Unless my next dog is something like Pyry who doesn't think much of affection. I'll be looking for a reward that is the same sort of motivation that affection is for Penny.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. 

With a physically fit dog, I don't know why people have such an aversion to the dog getting excited to learn.  (I don't know why they have an aversion to it anyway - there are things we can do to minimize the chances for injury) Picture a classroom full of elementary school students all raising their hands excitedly because they know the answer to the question their beloved teacher has asked.  Why would you think that dogs can't experience the joy of learning, even if it's just for the sake of getting a toy or a treat?  Why squelch that?  In humans, it's maybe the difference between street sweepers and surgeons...maybe, also the difference between lap dogs and OTCH's.  Not that everyone wants a champion, but dogs are often capable of more than we give them credit for.