Just for fun - video of Z and I clicking!

 Great job!  :D

With regards to the messy... You did miss a few chances to c/t but we all do that.  It seemed to me that in many cases, she didn't know what she was being c/t for.  This may have been because you were trying to help her out because of time, but she was watching you and not paying attention to where she was walking, and you would click and treat because she walked on the mat.  In the long run, doing it this way will not teach her to go to it, only to follow you around, which goes back to the messy bits as you know.  So really hard to comment because of all the luring.

With targeting the stick, since she had a hard time finding it when you put it in the air, I would move in smaller heights so you don't have to help her.  So instead of going from the side at 1 foot off the ground to 2 feet over her head, move to 1 ft 4 inches on the side.  Then 1 ft 8 inches to the side, then 2 ft in the air, then begin to move it over her head.  So first you're raising the criteria of height, then adding in over her head.

You asked!  :) 

Hehe - yea the messy training I was referring to was all the movement and 'hints" I was giving and you are exactly right that if i continued to teach that way, she wouldn't understand what I was wanting.  The second session (in class as a demo) went much more smoothly; by the end of the demo she was starting to really "get it". :) 

 Interestingly enough on the targeting video - she was following the stick all over by the end of that first session, despite my huge jumps in criteria.  I actually was doing some of those huge jumps to see if she was catching on yet and you'll notice that the first two I backed down after because she wasn't getting it, but towards the end she was actually jumping to touch the stick when it was in the high location.

Thanks for the input!  I always like having other people share what they see when I work!  I may try to do another round of go to mat and/or target stick tonight, we'll see if I have time.
 

 I just rewatched it and every time you brought it up over her head where she would have to lift her front off the ground, you brought it in front of her nose or said her name before raising it that high.  ;)  There was one where it was at ear height, that she got without luring, but higher than that and you lured.  I find that when I watch videos of myself I find I'm doing things I didn't even realize I was doing.  lol.

ETA: I'm not trying to be argumentative, so I made sure to watch it carefully this time, but again, I wasn't in your head at the time.  Sometimes, I have perfectly valid reasons for doing the things I did, but to an outside, it looks like I did X, when in my head it was Y.  lol

Good catches - I hadn't realized I was doing that!  Gotta love videoing yourself! lol

 Yup!  That's why BF got me a video camera for Christmas this year.  :D  Now I just need decent weather to take it outside.  lol....

stardog85

see if she was catching on yet and you'll notice that the first two I backed down after because she wasn't getting it, but towards the end she was actually jumping to touch the stick when it was in the high location.

Actually, I could see that, too. At first, I thought she might have a vision problem but it turns out that she could see it she just had to learn that it was okay to target that high. I noticed, too, at certain times, you smiled, which may be another accidental cue that gets absorbed into the chain. Dogs watch our faces, most specifically our eyes. But it looks like good work and she learns fast.

As for the mat, It reminded me of initial problems just interacting with any object. I then learned to keep the object between my and my dog, so that I could c & t for any motion toward or interaction with the object.

And it all looked like fun.

That was great! I liked watching both of them because it is very much like what I do with mine and what mine do with me. So, yeah, I'm normal!

I'm trying to teach mine to carry something in their mouths but as soon as the pick it up, they drop it since that was the first step I took, so, we're moving beyond the pick up and drop thing, but it's taking a bit of time.

At least I can laugh at them while I do this, though. There is that . . .than and my own smile because I really do think they'll be picking up (and putting away) their toys soon enough.

 Maybe I'll try working a retrieve soon too lol.  Remember that backchaining can be incredibly helpful for retrieve work. There's a number of clicker methods out there for retrieve work.  Have you heard of Sue Ailsby's Training Levels?

stardog85

 Maybe I'll try working a retrieve soon too lol.  Remember that backchaining can be incredibly helpful for retrieve work. There's a number of clicker methods out there for retrieve work.  Have you heard of Sue Ailsby's Training Levels?

In the first vid, I thought you helped her just a tad too much.  It's hard to wait the dog out, but as long as you are getting 8-10 C/T in a 60 second time frame, the dog is probably learning.  I admit, I get "juiced" by a dog that is quick, like Sequoyah, and I have to reduce that expectation for most other dogs.  I would try to lure only the first couple of times, and then not help her so much.  Just a suggestion.

I liked the target session more.  BTW - you and I have virtually the same tile.  I love my tile floors! 

As to the retrieve, I like Sue Ailsby's stuff, but I am a big fan of Lonnie Olson's backchained retrieve, too.  And, for those who can't manage the clicker, Sue Sternberg's motivational retieve.

 Another video!  Z shaping again - haven't practiced this skill since I originally posted 2/4!  She remembers and learns *well* that's for sure. :)

 A comment or two.

She is doing great!  And she has such a strong desire to stay on the mat even after you click, that I, personally, would build on that.  I would go in to reward her on the mat, then give her a release off of it after the reward.  If you continue to click then ask her to come off of it right after the click, you're going to teach her that the click ends the behavior.  Whereas if you click, go in and reward, then release with a cookie toss off to the side, then you're now working on a strong desire to stay on the mat as well as your release cue.  Will be GREAT when teaching 2o2o if you haven't already taught it.  My biggest hurdle with Kota in the 2o2o has been that if I click, he comes off the ramp.  I want him to stay on it until released, so I've been doing a lot of close up targeting, with verbal releases to reinforce that he stays on the ramp until released.

And I would wait her out just a bit longer.  Or maybe when you've upped the criteria by moving further away, downgrade the criteria you're c/t'ing for by c/t the look at the mat.  She looked at it twice before you moved closer.  The first time it seemed like she was just about to go to it when you said something but I couldn't make out what you said.

At the clicker clinic I attended last summer, it was really great to have two people watching me and commenting on my timing and what I did or didn't do.  So I hope that's what you're looking for.  ;)
 

Thanks for posting some videos, its always educational to see other trainer's in action! 

I agree that the first session was "messy" - it didn't really feel like shaping to me because there was so much luring and very little active learning on Ziya's part. She has impeccable focus on you which I think makes it hard to not drop hints (ie: lures) to get her offering different behaviour.  By the end of the session, I didn't see her moving toward the mat, just towards you - I think setting her up so she has to turn away from you might have helped her "get it".

I think the targeting session was handled much better...And I must say you are very good at juggling treats, clicker and target (I cannot handle all 3 at once)!!! I think it would have been good to change your position; I also think that tossing the treat away so Ziya cannot see you move the target would be a good idea (otherwise it acts like a hint IMO). Also, the last behaviour you click wasn't strong - from what I can see she didn't actually touch the target stick, its totally understandable but I would have rather ended on a stronger example of the behaviour.

The last mat video was interesting! I personally would not have added a cue at this stage, or if I did, it would only be once she was in the correct mat position so there is was no chance of confusion. I see that you added distance here but it seemed too hard for Ziya, like the previous poster mentioned she needed to be reassured for looking at the mat... Had you C&T there, I think she would have figured things out on her own instead of have to be "lured" back to the mat.  I also would have ended the session much sooner, even though Ziya was still willing to work. She was excellent at 1:00-1:05 minute mark - heading straight for the mat and lying down even after you had changed criteria. After that point, there was a lot of prompting which stops her from problem solving. The 1:39-1:45 mark would have also been a good spot to end. I am the worst offender for keeping shaping sessions going to long but most of the time I have no expectations.  If I'm shaping a behaviour that will have a cue later on, I end earlier then I want to - it keeps the dog motivated and generally ensures that we end on a great note. 

 Do you always have food in your hand when you shape? I am just wondering if she is focused on you or the food? Do you think not having food on you would make a difference? Some dogs get so focused on the food that they "forget" what they are doing and why they are getting food. 

tashakota

If you continue to click then ask her to come off of it right after the click, you're going to teach her that the click ends the behavior.

 Good call. The click and "good girl" will become release cues if you aren't careful. I made this mistake as well - until it came to weave poles, where I quickly realized that I didn't want Dodger to pop out of the weaves at the sound of a click.

 Dang I'm glad I can take constructive criticism well!

One thing I really wanted to address is that to me the click *does* signal the end of the behavior - it's what I've always heard of on lists and in books and even at Clicker Expo last year.   If I want to build duration, I delay the click and if I want to continue the behavior (like weaves, etc.) I use a keep-going signal (like good, etc.).  For go to mat I want to build a strong "magnetism" to the mat so I pull the dog off intentionally each time.  When the magnetism is strong enough, then I start building duration.

You can't tell on the video, but I did realize that I added the cue at the wrong time about 2 reps in, and at that point I switched to cuing as she laid down on the mat - that worked much better. :)

The other points are all good btw.  I'll be sure to keep posting vids.  Perhaps you guys would like to as well?
 

I do, but I haven't had time!  lol...  I started my dogs on a target stick a few days after you posted the first ones, but I haven't uploaded them to YouTube yet.  I got them off the camera... just like I got the agility runs off, but haven't had time to compress them then upload.     And I want to because I love getting feedback.