Encountering strangers on walks - goes from friendly to aggressive?

espencer

spiritdogs

Great advice, including the part about not correcting the growling.  You do not want to remove your dog's "early warning system".

 

I apply corrections and i have never come across with something like you say, as far as i understand you dont work with corrections either, so thats why its easy to have misinformation about them and its understandable to bring non accurate statements, therefore i dont blame you for not to be accurate on how corrections work 

I don't mean to be argumentative, but you are incorrect, and it is you who do not understand, regardless of how the corrections work, WHEN to use and not use them.  I do occasionally use correction (I am extremely careful when and how), but in the situation that our OP has described, correction is not the proper tactic.  You want to extinguish the CAUSE for the dog's growl, not the growl itself.  So, if a dog is growling out of fear, for example, you need to change his opinion about the thing he's scared of.  The way you do that is with conditioning, or maybe flooding (again, not with every case, as we often see on a certain TV show).  You do NOT take away the dog's ability to warn you by punishing him for growling, because at some point he may see another thing that scares him.  If you have taken away his ability to growl, you'd better hope the "something" isn't a three year old child reaching for him under the bed. 

espencer

Again:

espencer

as far as i understand you dont work with corrections, so thats why is easy to have misinformation about them and its understandable to bring non accurate statements

And i never said that you should correct and forget about the root of the problem

Anyways, i'm not interested on spending another twenty-something pages talking about this, my post is just to let know the original poster that not everything said on the forum is the right information

Then why do you keep telling me I don't work with corrections?  What exactly ARE you trying to say?  What's the point in trying to discredit someone you don't know and have never seen train a dog? 

Obviously not everything said is the right information.  That's why it's called a forum....a place where people can chime in as they like. 

Liesje

Then why do you keep telling me I don't work with corrections?  What exactly ARE you trying to say?  What's the point in trying to discredit someone you don't know and have never seen train a dog? 

Well, do you work with corrections,and are you saying none of your dogs ever show aggression in any form?

neztahoni

Well, do you work with corrections,and are you saying none of your dogs ever show aggression in any form?

Yes, I use various forms of verbal or physical correction in different situations/for different behaviors.  YES I have seen one of my own dogs show aggression because a correction was unintentionally/incorrectly applied to a warning and it escalated.  I also work with countless shelter dogs, all that show different warning behaviors and have various levels of aggression or fear towards other dogs and people.  Even the most traditional, correction-happy behaviorist I know would never advocate for correcting a dog's warnings, in fact most of our training involved learning what behaviors are fear-based warnings and what behaviors constitute real aggression.  I've never heard any trainer or behaviorist advise someone to correct a dog's warnings.

Liesje

YES I have seen one of my own dogs show aggression because a correction was unintentionally/incorrectly applied to a warning and it escalated.

If you don't mind, could you give a description of this situation, so we can have an insight on what you mean?

If you correct a dog's warning, like saying "hey dog, stop growling/air snapping/whatever", then the next time the dog is in the same situation that causes fearful reactions and the dog has been trained NOT to give a warning, the dog goes from acting normal to being actually aggressive (lunging, biting, etc).  I think the key point is that warning behaviors are not the same as aggression and should not be treated the same way we treat aggressive behaviors.  If my dog was actually aggressive (lunging and biting, trying to hurt dogs and people), then yes I'd immediately be applying corrections if for nothing more than safety and keeping control of the dog, but luckily I have not had that problem with my own dogs.  Now that I have been allowing for warnings, there have been no problems.  One dog approaches in a rude way, the other dog curls a lip and gives and air snap, and the rude dog gets the point and backs off.  Correcting those warnings out of the dog results in the rude dog approaching and the other dog waiting until it can't take it anymore and actually lunging at the rude dog because it has been trained that warnings are not appropriate, but the root cause of those warnings was not dealt with.  In my situation what I have done is began allowing warnings and instead of correcting them, focusing on more desensitization, building positive associations with the things that bring out fear, and learning ways to redirect the dog and take control of the situation before the warnings even become necessary.  I don't just let the dog warn and think nothing of it, I pay close attention to when the dog is giving warning so I can observe what things cause the fearful responses and then work on that so the dog gains confidence overall and no longer needs warnings.

I was kind of thinking of one particular situation with your dogs.I think one of your dogs bit the other in the neck, but I don't remember all the details, and I was kind of hoping you would explain how you intervened and controlled this situation. But, it's ok, I don't remember all details with my animals.

neztahoni

I was kind of thinking of one particular situation with your dogs.I think one of your dogs bit the other in the neck, but I don't remember all the details, and I was kind of hoping you would explain how you intervened and controlled this situation. But, it's ok, I don't remember all details with my animals.

That was a totally different situation, lol. One dog correcting another.  Apparently Kenya does not like Coke in that corner of the room b/c that's where she sleeps (under the desk).  I simply stood up and said, "HEY no!" to tell Kenya that *I* decided what Coke is allowed to do and what he is not allowed to do. Coke is her best friend, she is not afraid of him at all.  They both play really rough with each other and use a lot of teeth, but it's not aggression or fear-based at all.  She didn't actually bite him, she just snapped and stood over him.  Neither of my dogs have ever bitten another dog aggressively, but Kenya lip curls and air snaps in fear situations, I've never heard her growel (sounds like the OP's dog fear responses are growling and air snapping).

You wrote the following in your post. I just want to add the search option is a terrible working one. This post describes a different situation, and there is a bite. It seems there is aggression between your dogs.Is this how you usually approach these types of situations?

2.  Kenya went after Coke, not aggressively, but I am still annoyed with her.  I saw him digging around in a corner, looking for food (sometimes I drop a kibble or two when I'm scooping the food so he is always checking).  I saw Kenya walk up behind him like she was stalking him, snap him on the neck, and then sort of hold on.  Not real hard, not really different than their play, but it seemed like she was correcting him for no reason.  He was a bit startled and stood up, froze, and avoided her glance.  She stood pressed up against him sort of standing over him, even though he's 4 inches taller.  He was up against my desk and tried to back away from her and she snapped at him again.  Someone gave a short growl (I'm honestly not sure who) and right then I decided to intervene so I stood up and said "HEY!"  Normally I don't correct my dogs for rough play or corrections of each other, but she really went after him for NO reason, he was minding his own business in a corner and didn't even have a toy!  So I said "NO!" and Kenya slinked over to me and rolled over so her belly was up.  I went over and put the toys up high, making it obvious I was taking them away even though they weren't playing with them at the time, and then I pet Coke.  Coke seemed fine so I went over to Kenya and started petting her once she got up (I don't pet her when she is being overly submissive).  Normally I support her as the alpha and I allow deserved corrections and warnings like lip curls, but I draw the line at her being a bully!  I don't know what she was trying to do, pick a fight?

I guess I missed in here somewhere how the "help an owner with a timid-towards-humans dog" discussion turned into "search for past dog-on-dog issues in another member's household" discussion.

BlazinB, how are things going with your dog? Any changes or improvements?

neztahoni

You wrote the following in your post. I just want to add the search option is a terrible working one. This post describes a different situation, and there is a bite. It seems there is aggression between your dogs.Is this how you usually approach these types of situations?

Uh....I wrote that post tongue-in-cheek, lol, complaining about how they had also ruined the nice leather shoe.  Kenya is not aggressive, just the notion that she is has me laughing here.  She is submissive to a fault, very shy, passive dog.  I have often wished that she were aggressive rather than shy/fearful.  I actually find working with aggressive dogs more predictable.  But anyway....

You asked if I used corrections and I said yes.  You've provided an example for me of when I have used a correction, albeit just a verbal one, so I'm not sure the point here?  When the play gets too rough and one dog starts being a bully, yes I step in.  She did not "bite" him in the aggressive sense, she has always shown great inhibition.  I did not use the word "bite".  Both of my dogs snap/correct each other while they are playing or if one is being too pushy.  However, the OP is not talking about two dogs that know and love each other and get out of hand after an hour of rough-housing, she is talking about a dog that has fear issues with strangers.  I do not correct (or condone) fear or warning behaviors, just as I have been saying all along.

What approach and what types of situations are you referring to?  Sorry I'm really confused now... 

Here's my dogs playing...if you honestly think my dogs are aggressive, I would invite you to spend more time around big dogs playing 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQVeC_-P_qY 

Cita

I guess I missed in here somewhere how the "help an owner with a timid-towards-humans dog" discussion turned into "search for past dog-on-dog issues in another member's household" discussion.

BlazinB, how are things going with your dog? Any changes or improvements?

I was wondering the same thing.  Hope our OP gets back with an update.   

Liesje

Uh....I wrote that post tongue-in-cheek, lol, complaining about how they had also ruined the nice leather shoe.  Kenya is not aggressive, just the notion that she is has me laughing here.  She is submissive to a fault, very shy, passive dog.  I have often wished that she were aggressive rather than shy/fearful.  I actually find working with aggressive dogs more predictable.  But anyway....

*content removed, rude, baiting*

spiritdogs

I do occasionally use correction

Riiiight, I'm sure you do

spiritdogs

If you have taken away his ability to growl, you'd better hope the "something" isn't a three year old child reaching for him under the bed. 

I dont take the ability to growl, i taught him/her that i will be there to take the kid away BEFORE the dog decides to go from growl to bite in less than a second, THATS the difference between dog training and dog psycohology

Liesje

Kenya is not aggressive

Liesje

Kenya lip curls and air snaps in fear situations

Liesje

but it's not aggression or fear-based at all. 

I'm confused, she is not aggressive and its not aggression or fear based BUT she lip curls and air snaps in fear situations

Liesje

Uh....I wrote that post tongue-in-cheek, lol, complaining about how they had also ruined the nice leather shoe.  Kenya is not aggressive, just the notion that she is has me laughing here.  She is submissive to a fault, very shy, passive dog.  I have often wished that she were aggressive rather than shy/fearful.  I actually find working with aggressive dogs more predictable.  But anyway....

**Edited, rude behavior**

Did you ever give us a time date on how long you have owned dogs?