Who is the alpha dog in your pack?

I too have to go with the fluid structure in my household.  Maggie controls bones and space most of the time and Z leads walks and play most of the time, but things are always changing.  I do find watching their interactions fascinating regardless.  

Kee is definitely the omega -- by choice, she doesn't give a rip.  She'll get there -- eventually. But avoiding the 8 feet trying to climb over her is her primary concern (and if you were that low to the ground and that slow it would be for you, too!!)

Luna spends a whole lot of time politely convincing Billy it was ALL his idea ... (even tho it WAS hers).  They've evolved that into quite the alpha male/alpha female "You do Thank yous and Sympathy Cards and I'll make sure the trash is out on Tuesday and Thursday, but I'm NOT doing that recycling thing or cleaning sinks but I don't want ammonia in MY shirts so I'll do those ... later" kind of thing.

Because we've always got somebuddy elderly, because MY footing is so unsure, because we usually have someone 'sick' or requiring special care, I tend not to have a typical rambunctious group.  I'm probably the only dog home to have (successfully) the command "NO galumping!!  Don't hurt Kee!! Slow down!";)

But Luna's incredibly smart -- she's got it totally figured that if they're too rowdy DAD will make them stop playing ... so she'll playbow Billy and jumpback ... and nudge up next to him to push and he'll butt-swing HER (just to let her know he's really interested but again, Dad's watching so we can't get too rowdy).  In an all out race Luna's faster-- but Billy's smarter and will turn around before he gets TO the fence to cut some off and get back to Mom quicker!  Luna just looks at him like "wow -- you're SOOOOO smart -- you won" (as she body blocks him out of the way to get to the treats first).

They're hysterical.  Why do people watch TV when they can watch their dogs instead?

FourIsCompany

tssst

What if these two words are simply choices (per our own internal and unique definitions) we make to describe the same thing?

 

They are.  

Granted, I don't have multiple dogs. And as you and Snownose pointed out more than once, 1 dog and 1 cat do not a make a pack. And I will concede that interaction between a group of dogs may be different than the interaction between my dog and cat, even though he was raised around cats, which certainly helped his socialization.

I consider the pets part of my family. But I cannot equate it to a pack because of prior definitions set forth, primarly by people with more than one dog.

So, for me, by others' definitions, family and pack are two separate things, even though, in the wild, a pack of wolves is usually a family. But I'm not equating dogs to wolves. In fact, by means of nDNA, dogs are closer to coyotes but that's a whole 'nother thing.

Kim_MacMillan

That was meant to be simple....and honestly I would be happy to discuss it at more length if it interests you, it's really not something you can wrap up in one paragraph as it just involves sooooooooooo many variables and discussions *G* And adding to that that I don't even have a firm grasp on it, because I'm always observing and always watching, and always learning, and the more I do that the more I'm convinced that the relationships and interactions between dogs are not something we can ever really quantify or qualify, because they are so dynamic.

 And that's only the Prologue to the story, I didn't even touch on the "human" part of the dynamic. *G*

I agree Kim, can I say your answer is my answer too (even though I only have two dogs and a cat)?

All three look to me for everything...so, technically, I'm alpha.  If you take me out, there is definitely an order.  Rose is the alpha...shes calm and laid back, very accepting of most of the boys rowdy behaviors, but will assert herself if things get out of hand.   For example, she will have a toy and Colton wants it.  So, he tries to steal it.  She will hold it in her mouth, snarling her lips to try to tell him "this is mine, and you can't have it!"  If that fails to get the message across, she will snap at him and then he says "OK, OK!  I didn't mean it!" and goes to some other activity.  Sometimes it takes a while for him to understand, but he usually gets it.  Cash is the bottom dog.  He does what everyone tells him.  He only cares about his space, and even that, he will give up if another dog tells him to. 

It goes like this:

Me

Beckham (cat) 

Kenya

Phil

Coke 

LOL

I guess between the two dogs, Kenya is the alpha, but it wasn't something that they actually fought over.  Coke came in and was totally submissive.  He didn't push any boundaries and basically observed Kenya's routines and eventually joined in.  They each have their own preferences that don't interfere with each other.  For example, Kenya likes the couch, Coke likes the bed.  Kenya likes being under the desk, Coke likes squeezing between the couch and the wall.  Kenya takes her food in her crate, Coke wants his in a Kong and rolls it all over the house.  As far as play, they both take turns chasing/herding each other.  When they wrestle, typically, Coke with throw himself at Kenya's feet and pester her until she joins in.  In pics it appears that Kenya is holding Coke down, but he is always the one to start a wrestling match and likes to play on his back, kicking his feet.  He actually does the same thing when he is alone, playing with a toy (he rolls on his back and holds the toy with his front paws).  Neither dog resources guards anything.  They play tug together every night and so far I've had no reason to begin controlling their toys.  Every once in a while it gets a little out of hand and I take the toys for a short time, but that is mainly to control the noise and hyperactivity.  They are both very submissive dogs to people.  Kenya is extremely submissive to my cats.  She will instantly give up her bed or back away from her food dish if a cat approaches.  Kenya is less tolerant of loud/pushy dogs and people than Coke, but that doesn't come into play as far as pack structure.  

Last night was interesting because I found a male Bichon on the street and took him in.  It was literally freezing and blizzard conditions outside so I had no choice but to bring him straight into the house.  There were absolutely no issues.. not a single bark, growl, snap, or hard stare in either direction.  Kenya sniffed him and then totally ignored him.  Coke tried to play with him and luckily the little dog was very eager to play so they had a blast.  Again, Coke rolled on his side and let the Bichon jump all over him.  At bed time, Coke and Kenya took their places on the dog beds in our room and let the Bichon sleep in bed with us. 

I've recently decided it's more useful to understand and/or define the personality of a dog than its position in the social hierarchy for the same reasons Kim has outlined. 

So. Pyry is the stubborn, determined, willful one that is always very committed to getting what he wants.

Jill just wants to be everyone's friend and stay out of trouble with those she lives with, but she isn't a doormat and won't take bullying. 

Penny was little police lady bossypants, but is really too old and wise to care anymore. She's been there, done that, and it was overrated. She doesn't like conflict or tension but will do ANYTHING for food. To anyone. Even me if she thinks it might work.

So, using this knowledge of the dogs' personalities, I can say Pyry will always win an argument because he won't quit until he has, Jill will try to avoid conflict unless she's being bullied or confronted with outrageously rude behaviour, and Penny will try to avoid conflict unless there's food involved. That's all I need to know. I think it's interesting that I could draw the conclusion that Pyry is at the top because he always wins, and Jill is second because she won't put up with Penny's bullying. I just think that's an inaccurate representation of what's happening. I don't think it's about rank. I think it's about individuals and how much they value things compared to how much they want to avoid conflict, and that changes a lot.

 To be honest, I really don't know.  Sally displays more dominant behavior.  She will correct Jack, take stuff that he has that she wants occasionally, etc.  We feed her first.  Jack does not always defer to her though.  When they would be outside and I would be preparing their food, Jack would jump up on the door to watch me and Sally would do a growly/barky thing and jump on him.  He would yelp but it never seemed to deter him for long--he would be right back up on the door 30 seconds later--then she would correct him, and he would get back up, and she would correct him, and he would get back up, etc, etc, etc.  Eventually he wore her down and she doesn't care if he gets up on the door or not.

Jack will often ignore Sally if he feels she is being annoying.  He'll either kind of put his head up in the air and not look at her (not really turning away though) or just walk away.  Sometimes she'll kind of stand over him and sometimes he'll stand over her.  When it comes to something he wants, Jack would rather trick Sally into dropping or abandoning it rather than being confrontational.

It sounds like being "alpha" in a pack between two dogs is contextual. I was told by people with 4 dogs that you have to have at least 3 dogs to have a pack. That my 1 dog and cat do not make a pack. Some neighbors who have 3 dogs give me an example of fluidity in leader at 3, making me assume that it could fluid at 4, just as it is fluid at 2. And I think that's because the concept of alpha is different to a dog than we perceive it is. So, different dogs can trade off on the role depending on the context of the situation. That's my two cents, 1 dog, 1 cat.

I'll just reply to myself to show a concerted family effort. We had a mouse in the house, today. Jade spotted it first. Then I got in to helping her catch it. Then, Shadow joined. I was lifting one end of an 8 foot overstuffed sofa and DW was banging on the side of it. Eventually, the mouse came out at one end and DW pinned it with a lap-style dinner tray. Jade was going to try and get it but Shadow horned in and got it in his mouth. He grabbed it around in his mouth for a few times and it quit moving. Not a singular puncture and mostly wet from dog saliva. And he gave it up to me for a piece of butterfly pork chop from the fridge. That is, he gave up fresh quarry for some cooked meat.Even though his prey drive helped him to track the scent and to nose in whereever DW was, his intent wasn't to truly eat the mouse. Anyway, I disposed of the critter. Packs hunt together, each according to their abilities. But, since I only have one dog, one cat, and one wife, I could say families hunt together. Who was the "alpha" in this case?

ETA: I gave him the treat of cooked meat (human food) because it is a high value treat, I like spoiling him, but I take advantage of a scenario that doesn't happen often in order to train the response I want. For a dog, generalization does not always occur the way we think it does. The same behavior in a new situation is a new behavior for a dog. So, the next time I need him to drop it with a prey animal or critter, there is already precedence that dropping it is rewarding.

Here's the thing, in my ever evolving opinion, about dominance/alpha/whatever: being "at the top" doesn't mean you always get your way in all things. So yes, individual dogs have their limits, and things they care about that others may not. Dominance to me is about relative power. One dog may chose to spend that power in certain areas, another dog may spend it differently. But there is no such thing as unlimited power.

There are also doggie norms, and a well mannered "alpha/dominant/whatever will respect those. One doggie norm is that you don't grab something out of another dog's mouth.  You can stand over the other until he gives up and drops it, lol, but you don't take it by force.

I tend to think of power as influence, and not an absolute unto itself. So Sally has enough influence over Jack to get him to knock it off, but not enough influence to get him to stop trying.  And Sally wisely decided that the door jumping was not the hill she wanted to die on. LOL. In parenting they always say to pick your battles, and I think the same is true for dogs. I'm the alpha person relative to my daughter, but she sure as heck doesn't always defer to me and there are some issues I let slide so I can make a firm stand elsewhere.

Dog_ma

One dog may chose to spend that power in certain areas, another dog may spend it differently. But there is no such thing as unlimited power.

I like that phrasing. And it still reminds me of each dog having their own comfort zone or, as you might put it sphere of influence. So, not one dog is necessarily alpha all the time, ruling with an iron paw. Much of it, I suspect, is a social adjustment, so to speak. Is that what some mean by social learning? Learning from each other what is desired and what is not desired and how willing we are to work to that stability of rules?

ron2

I'll just reply to myself to show a concerted family effort. We had a mouse in the house, today. Jade spotted it first. Then I got in to helping her catch it. Then, Shadow joined. I was lifting one end of an 8 foot overstuffed sofa and DW was banging on the side of it. Eventually, the mouse came out at one end and DW pinned it with a lap-style dinner tray. Jade was going to try and get it but Shadow horned in and got it in his mouth. He grabbed it around in his mouth for a few times and it quit moving.

If the mouse had not kicked the bucket you could have kept it and I think with three animals and two humans you could have been a real pack.

GoldenAC

If the mouse had not kicked the bucket you could have kept it and I think with three animals and two humans you could have been a real pack

Now, that's cute.

I look back on and find that I can also describe it as being similar to an episode of "Keystone Kops." At one point, Jade was heading around the back of the couch and the mouse was behind her. That's when DW pinned it.

 Well put, Kim. For those interested in how the alpha theory developed, where it went wrong, and why, you can read the article found at this link:

http://tinyurl.com/2q2esp

LCK