Cesar haters

Hi Luvmyswissy,

When you say things like "I am not a Cesar lover or hater! And.. I have learned to stay away from the topic. But you did strike a nerve BECAUSE I find these statements so over exaggerated by people who have overblow opinons on a subject they really know nothing about.", I can not help but think of what was previously stated:

Ron2

(Ceasar) kicks to the dog's hind-quarters. He doesn't kick hard enough to make a 20 yard field goal but he is physically impacting the dog.

I would like to know how it was determined if it was a kick or somethig else such as a tap. A comparison was also made that his "kick" was not as hard as a 20-yard field goal. However, when somebody makes such a statement, the visual impact is left behind for others to read and form opinions as if what was being stated was cold factual information.

I would like to ask Ron to cut that number by 1/2. And then ask how much measured force it takes to kick a 10 yard field goal. Do the same measurement for a 5 yard field goal. Then measure how hard Ceasar uses his foot on the hind quarters of a dog to get the dogs attention. When this exercise is done in a scientific fashion, then we can talk about whether what Ceasar does with his foot constitutes a kick or a touch. Until then, it is exactly as Luvmyswissy states, overblown emotion.

I suspect that a kick s hard as a 5 yard field goal would knock the dog over. I suspect that tapping the dog on the hind quarters might be using as much force as it would take for me to stand next to Ron and give him a tap on his left shoulder to get his attention.

The distortion in statements like this tend to perpetuate myth, and it is rather unfortunate, in my opinion, especially coming from more scientifically inclined and/or professional people. I agree with you Lovmyswissy. Everyone not only has oipinions, but many of the people who dislike this man the most have personal agendas.

corgipower

When he shows a dog standing in the back corner of the yard where all the dogs are kept and says that the dog is "calm", "relaxed", "has accepted his place in the pack", while the dog being shown has his tail glued to his stomach, is panting heavily, and is clearly too traumatized to move, I would very much agree with those who say that he misreads dogs. That dog's initial problem? High ball drive. Another dog was going through every submissive move in the book and trying frantically to get away - and to get to the safety of his owner - from an overbearing dog that was trying to meet him. The overwhelmed, scared, submissive dog was supposedly being "pushy" with the owner when he attempted to find safety in her lap. When the dog was unsuccessful at finding safety from his owner - as per CM's advice - he went to the pushy dog and began licking her in a very submissive way. CM said he was giving her kisses and was a "Don Juan". When he rolled over on his back, he was "playing".

...which is exactly why it distresses me so much that people don't want to discuss this aspect of his supposed expertise.  His devotees can hardly claim to be open-minded if they are unwilling to examine the things the guy does wrong, as well as the things he does right.  Granted, in some places, as our OP pointed out, the commentary may be less than decorous, but why is it that so many people who like him aren't willing to critique his work honestly?  Most experienced dog people should be able to spot the problems you describe immediately.  So, why aren't they questioning his decisions in such situations?

tssst

Hi Luvmyswissy,

When you say things like "I am not a Cesar lover or hater! And.. I have learned to stay away from the topic. But you did strike a nerve BECAUSE I find these statements so over exaggerated by people who have overblow opinons on a subject they really know nothing about.", I can not help but think of what was previously stated:

Ron2

(Ceasar) kicks to the dog's hind-quarters. He doesn't kick hard enough to make a 20 yard field goal but he is physically impacting the dog.

I would like to know how it was determined if it was a kick or somethig else such as a tap. A comparison was also made that his "kick" was not as hard as a 20-yard field goal. However, when somebody makes such a statement, the visual impact is left behind for others to read and form opinions as if what was being stated was cold factual information.

I would like to ask Ron to cut that number by 1/2. And then ask how much measured force it takes to kick a 10 yard field goal. Do the same measurement for a 5 yard field goal. Then measure how hard Ceasar uses his foot on the hind quarters of a dog to get the dogs attention. When this exercise is done in a scientific fashion, then we can talk about whether what Ceasar does with his foot constitutes a kick or a touch. Until then, it is exactly as Luvmyswissy states, overblown emotion.

I suspect that a kick s hard as a 5 yard field goal would knock the dog over. I suspect that tapping the dog on the hind quarters might be using as much force as it would take for me to stand next to Ron and give him a tap on his left shoulder to get his attention.

The distortion in statements like this tend to perpetuate myth, and it is rather unfortunate, in my opinion, especially coming from more scientifically inclined and/or professional people. I agree with you Lovmyswissy. Everyone not only has oipinions, but many of the people who dislike this man the most have personal agendas.

tssst

One of my dogs was kicked in the head by a horse, hard enough to give her a concussion, and she was not knocked over....

I think that ron was just answering the another poster's question as to what make him uncomfortable about CM.  I'm not sure why that is such a big deal.  He actually did say some nice things about him if you read the entire post.

Rather than accuse ron of "overblown emotion," and jump in to be CM's champion (the impression that I have of him is that he is confident enough in his own skills to not need random fans to repeatedly defend him against random critics), it seems much more productive to just accept that not everyone is going to believe that what CM does all of the time is correct, and that's just life.  If we all loved the same trainers and all had the same training ideas, this place would be boring and stagnant.  

Moderator request... 

Move to a new thread for discussion not relating to the specific topic of this thread. Discussion re: the impact of a foot on a dog, is a topic for another thread...specific techniques of behavior modification or training, great topic for a new thread. This thread, was about one group on Yahoo, to refresh the memories of those posting.

Thank you.