Cesar haters

corvus

Now, I hate to drag up Steve Irwin, but he's one person that always claimed to have a natural way with animals and good instincts about them. I and many others refute and deny this claim on the grounds that he did get bitten. Often. And when the stingray got him, the only surprise was that it wasn't a snake or croc. 

 

I don't necessarily believe bites count for or against you, whether that applies to Millan, Irwin, myself....  Personally I think that if you work closely enough with animals all day every day, you will get bit, especially aggressive dogs and wild animals.  I don't think it's OK to get bit, provoke animals, or treat biting as badges, but just going by bites alone is not how I've ever judged Millan or Irwin (for better or worse). 

To Whom Can Help,

Yesterday I went to PETCO to buy the new Natural Balance and saw a book on the shelves by "Cesar."

I also see his name everywhere on this forum.

For educational purposes I really would like to know more about this guy. I read he has a show? He's a trainer?

I want to watch this guy, read about this guy, and find out for myself whether or not I like him. It appears he is one of those love or hate relationships and I'd like to educate myself to see which "side" I'd be on.

Thank you in advance. [you can post response here or PM me]

Anna7

I ran in to this yahoo group with a bunch of misogynist men on there slamming Cesar and women. Idiots. I don't know what people's problem is.

 

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/antidogwhisperer 

Moderator speaking,

Just re posting the topic of this thread, as it was quite specific. Start a new thread to discuss other issues,....thanks.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean that a good handler never gets bitten, just that a good handler should be able to avoid it. There is a difference. I get bitten in my job all the time when I'm careless or do something I know isn't all that sensible, but you can bet I'm so careful around animals that can do me some serious damage that those are the ones that don't get to bite me. I have the luxury of being able to say I won't touch an animal I don't feel confident I can avoid being bitten by, but all the same, someone has to catch the poisonous snakes that get into people's homes, or the crocodiles that are dangerously aggressive around people, and they don't last long if they aren't really careful at all times.

Maybe I'm wildly over-generalising about animals again, but it is my opinion that if people can work around poisonous snakes - which are harder IMHO to predict by far than a dog - without getting bitten, then there's not much excuse for getting bitten by a dog.

Having said that, I have been bitten, more than once. Not for a good many years, though! I don't encounter dogs that bite much and don't work with them, but most animals I've worked with give you fair warning when they're about to bite you. They don't want to bite you. Although there was that 3-legged mongrel that lived down the road that did seem to like biting people....

I am generalising here and there are always exceptions, but I think forcing a dog to bite is stupid, counter-productive, dangerous, and unnecessary, and that's what you do when you push a dog so far it bites. If it's possible to work with a dog without being bitten, that should be the way it's done. Everyone has to learn how far a dog can be pushed and it's different for every dog and every situation, but the signs are consistent and easily read in most cases. I know from working with Kit that sometimes these things do seem to come out of the blue, but if you're not on the ball enough to see it coming, that's your bad (or mine, as the case often is). I can forgive anyone for being bitten a few times, but if you work around dangerous dogs every day and get bitten a lot, that works against you in my eyes, and makes me think there's some misreading going on, or some ego involved.

 

It seems to me that the original poster just wants to stir up trouble between the message boards.  This poster has only one post, this one.  On other boards that's called trolling and hopefully ignored. 

New thread started for anyone who wanted to discuss dog bites  

 Personally, I think that the more popular the trainer, the more likely there are going to be people who do not agree with that person.  If you think that CM is divisive, you should see how horse people react to Pat Parelli---you will hear him described as everything as "God's gift to horses" to "a complete idiot."

Okay I'm no "Dog Whisperer / Cesar" expert but I did watch some of his stuff and formed my own opinion. His method clearly can/will work for dogs. When it comes to training/behavior I really don't think there is "one way" to do it all. I think you should check out all the methods out there and all the available techniques and see which one works for your dog. Now when I see people arguing or "hating" on Cesar I really see it as a total waste of breath on their behalf. What is he doing that is "so wrong"? I'd really like to know? I also now see why threads that have to do with behavior & training are so high tense; people get so defensive over it; I never knew it was such a sensitive subject. I think one thing we all can recognize is an "out of control" dog or a dog with "issues." HOW to fix that I think can vary and will vary till the end of time. When I think of a method being "wrong" I think of it wrong because it does not "fix" the behavior. Cesar seemed to be "fixing" behaviors. Is there a thread on the forum showing people's opinions against Cesar? I'd like to see that; because I really want to know what is so negative about him (I'm always open to learn new things and different point of views)

Pomeranian <3

Okay I'm no "Dog Whisperer / Cesar" expert but I did watch some of his stuff and formed my own opinion

We all do. And just because we come away from that not being adoring fans or want to implement his techniques doesn't mean that we didn't form an opinion and it doesn't mean that people who are not his adoring fans are automatons in some cult, either.

Pomeranian <3

What is he doing that is "so wrong"? I'd really like to know?

He misreads and misdiagnose's the dogs quite consistently. And thereby applies the wrong technique, usually a "correction", quite consistently and because he is misreading and mistreating, he doesn't understand the actual processes at work. And, since he hasn't received any actual education on psychology or small animal management or husbandry, he makes up his own terms, which sound sciency. Try watching the show with the sound off. He accomplishes what he can with how he stands and where he stands. He's a new factor in the dog's environment so the novelty interrupts the regular schedule, and he is constantly applying pressure to the dog by at least getting in his space and just about anything he does is considered an aversive, either directly +P or -R, even though he doesn't really understand those terms. The dog has two ways to react. Either shut down and appear behaved, or react vigorously. Since CM is not afraid to get bit and considers it an occupational hazard of dog rehab, he will overpower and flood the dog, sometimes getting bit. He uses collar pops, finger bites, where the dog is suppose to interpret his rounded primate fingers to be just sharpened meat tearing canine fangs, tssst, a sound most of his clients haven't heard before, and kicks to the dog's hind-quarters. He doesn't kick hard enough to make a 20 yard field goal but he is physically impacting the dog.

But he's a nice guy and really does well with humans. He's a sharp dresser and stays physically fit. He helped out Katrina dogs, he supports neuter/spay, which is quite a bit different than the culture of his heritage, Mexico, where they do not believe in contraception for dogs. He champions the bully breeds and opposes BSL. He has a show which has dramatic footage which makes for good ratings. He is selling the compound in LA and moving the center to his own land so that he can live on site with the dogs. And he's had some success with what he does.

And he can be stone cold wrong. And the viewing public can and does get the wrong idea, in spite of the disclaimer.

Cesar lives with a pack of 60+ dogs, they all live in a large penned in area together.  They are all shut down, all living harmonesly, all happy, all exercised, all loving dogs so HE MUST BE WRONG!

I have a shutdown dog too, he is wonderful!

luvmyswissy

Cesar lives with a pack of 60+ dogs, they all live in a large penned in area together.  They are all shut down, all living harmonesly, all happy, all exercised, all loving dogs so HE MUST BE WRONG!

I have a shutdown dog too, he is wonderful!

I guess I hit a nerve but I was trying to answer Pom 3 from the perspective of those who are not enthralled with CM. Perhaps his large group of dogs are happy and well in spite of his mistakes, which could make sense. Dogs are often misdiagnosed. By him and by others, most especially the average dog owner who views anything but what is requested as a usurpation of their authority, whether it was or not. Do some of his methods work? Yes. Is it the best way? Therein lies the debate.

 

When he shows a dog standing in the back corner of the yard where all the dogs are kept and says that the dog is "calm", "relaxed", "has accepted his place in the pack", while the dog being shown has his tail glued to his stomach, is panting heavily, and is clearly too traumatized to move, I would very much agree with those who say that he misreads dogs. That dog's initial problem? High ball drive. Another dog was going through every submissive move in the book and trying frantically to get away - and to get to the safety of his owner - from an overbearing dog that was trying to meet him. The overwhelmed, scared, submissive dog was supposedly being "pushy" with the owner when he attempted to find safety in her lap. When the dog was unsuccessful at finding safety from his owner - as per CM's advice - he went to the pushy dog and began licking her in a very submissive way. CM said he was giving her kisses and was a "Don Juan". When he rolled over on his back, he was "playing".

Hi Ron,

It was good to see you come back and say that your response was an opinion, rather than just attempting to state everything you said as absolute fact. I suspect that if Luvmyswissy had not said anything, it would have remained as is, a hidden bias. IT's interesting to see Houndlove's idea parroted. Have you tried it?

tssst

ron2

luvmyswissy

Cesar lives with a pack of 60+ dogs, they all live in a large penned in area together.  They are all shut down, all living harmonesly, all happy, all exercised, all loving dogs so HE MUST BE WRONG!

I have a shutdown dog too, he is wonderful!

I guess I hit a nerve but I was trying to answer Pom 3 from the perspective of those who are not enthralled with CM. Perhaps his large group of dogs are happy and well in spite of his mistakes, which could make sense. Dogs are often misdiagnosed. By him and by others, most especially the average dog owner who views anything but what is requested as a usurpation of their authority, whether it was or not. Do some of his methods work? Yes. Is it the best way? Therein lies the debate.

 

I am not a Cesar lover or hater!  And..  I have learned to stay away from the topic.  But you did strike a nerve BECAUSE I find these statements so over exaggerated by people who have overblow opinons on a subject they really know nothing about.  Trying to prove how inhumane, cruel and abusive this man is really gets tiresome,  When the fact is he has really done much good for dogs with or without my volume up or down.  Geezzz Louise.....  already give it up.  Talk about the methods and not the man!

Pomeranian <3

Okay I'm no "Dog Whisperer / Cesar" expert but I did watch some of his stuff and formed my own opinion. His method clearly can/will work for dogs. When it comes to training/behavior I really don't think there is "one way" to do it all. I think you should check out all the methods out there and all the available techniques and see which one works for your dog. Now when I see people arguing or "hating" on Cesar I really see it as a total waste of breath on their behalf. What is he doing that is "so wrong"? I'd really like to know? I also now see why threads that have to do with behavior & training are so high tense; people get so defensive over it; I never knew it was such a sensitive subject. I think one thing we all can recognize is an "out of control" dog or a dog with "issues." HOW to fix that I think can vary and will vary till the end of time. When I think of a method being "wrong" I think of it wrong because it does not "fix" the behavior. Cesar seemed to be "fixing" behaviors. Is there a thread on the forum showing people's opinions against Cesar? I'd like to see that; because I really want to know what is so negative about him (I'm always open to learn new things and different point of views)

 

Again, I don't hate Cesar, but like you say, there's a variety of methods anyone can use to accomplish certain things.  Two things I do not like are flooding and physical corrections, both of which Cesar uses all of the time.  I don't hate him at all, but he uses methods that are inconsistent with my training philosophy and do not work on my dog.  So, therefore my opinion of Cesar is that I would never hire him as a behaviorist, or anyone that uses those methods..it really has nothing to do with him personally.  Other people like using flooding and/or physical corrections or might have a dog that responds better to those methods.