Using the minuses (P- and R-)

 As for mouthing, I would curl my hand inward and away from his mouth and turn my attention away, while keeping track peripherally. When he would stop, I would return affection. That is -P.

I have used -P a lot with Jaia. He's very pushy and he wants my attention, so the best way for me to get the message through to him that he isn't to jump on me is to turn away or fold my arms and look at the ceiling. I'm AMAZED how well that one works! Of course, I always couple it with +R when he does the right thing.

I'm not sure what this is. Maybe someone can help me. They're trained now, but for a while, I would have them sit at the gate and wait. Then I would open the gate slowly. If anyone broke the wait (which they did), I'd quickly close the gate again. They sit and wait and I open the gate slowly, then release them. Is that -R?

FourIsCompany

I'm not sure what this is. Maybe someone can help me. They're trained now, but for a while, I would have them sit at the gate and wait. Then I would open the gate slowly. If anyone broke the wait (which they did), I'd quickly close the gate again. They sit and wait and I open the gate slowly, then release them. Is that -R?

 People here can probably guess how I would or would not use -P and -R, so instead of focusing on my own situation, I thought I'd post some items that may help others understand the use of these strategies and understand how they may have used them  Have fun.

http://www.emainehosting.com/mesard/Articles/Negative%20Punishment1.htm 

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/274

http://www.animalbehavioronline.com/negreinforcement.html 

http://tailsawagginonline.com/howdogslearn.html 

corgipower

How do you use them?

Very judiciously. I use P- more than R-, I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've likely used R- (at least intentionally). It's hard to say "How" I used them, but some situations I may use them would be: a dog that likes to jump up, a bitey puppy, a dog barking for attention, overexcited dogs that need to calm down, a dog that doesn't do a known response (such as sitting at the door, waiting in the car to be released). Things like that. They are of course always paired with R+ when the wanted behaviour occurs.

corgipower

How do you teach dogs to understand P-?

I can't really explain that. I just use it. It's really more a part of my entire philosophy and lifestyle, so that when it is used it is a clear communication to them. When I use P-, it would be as clear for my dogs as a collar pop would be for another dog, as an example. So it's very effective when it is used, because there is clear definition, starting from the day I share my life with dogs. But I couldn't really explain how I teach them to understand it, as it's really just ingrained as a part of how I live with dogs.

corgipower

How do you teach NRM's?

I don't use them. I used them with Gaci at one time (when I first learned about them and thought they were the coolest thing), and what was meant to be a neutral NRM she found quite punishing (again, it really doesn't fit well into the overall scheme of how I live with my dogs), so I dropped it. Since then I haven't found a need to use one, so I haven't used one. I keep it in my toolkit in case I ever run ino a situation in which I need it, but I haven't needed it yet.

corgipower

How do you use R- without having used P+?

The only R- I have used has to do with space and occupation of space. Unfortunately most R- does require first implementing an aversive, and I don't go that route. But the use of space and occupation/relinquishing of space is something I have used. Especially in working with fearful/possibly aggressive dogs, and just dogs in general, the idea of "space" is something that a lot of dogs find important. The new Aggression DVD out involves treating aggression with a form of R- that does not involve first applying P+, and I find it interesting and hope to learn more about it.

I'm not saying it to bug you but I think the gate thing is +R. Proper behavior gets the gate open. The open gate is a desired thing and the proper waiting is working for the desired thing.

corgipower

How do you teach dogs to understand P-?

I will have to repeat some things to answer that, so bear with me.

Dogs do what works, and the corollary, they drop what doesn't work. A behavior that does not bring them any reward, either self-defined or provided, tends to extinguish. So, if jumping on you didn't bring the attention they were looking for, they may try something else, like sitting or laying down, and if you show attention for that, they are likely to repeat that behavior because it gets them what they want. Any successful organism, as a biological entity, cannot afford to spend it's whole life engaging in behaviors that get no results. They have to find what works to survive and forget about that which doesn't work. As humans, we can have the ability to understand what works for a particular dog and try to help.

So, it's not a matter of the dog having to learn to understand -P, it is a side-effect of surviving by finding what works. -P is also inherent, IMO, in +R training. With some dogs, when the path to what works is so clear, the other behaviors extinguish in the face of that, sometimes, without the human having to directly address a particular behavior.

you don't have to teach dogs to understand -P. I mostly use -P with puppies, who respond very well to "withdrawl of attention" when they exhibit undesirable behaviors, adult dogs, not so much -P is used. People often get confused about -P and think they are applying -P when they are in fact using +R. Dog doesn't get to go outside until he sits- that's +R (he didn't have "going outside" so you couldn't have withdrawn it from him).

I've pretty much given up on no-reward-markers. I agree with many clicker-trainers who have observed that HUMANS seem to need to open their mouths and issue no-reward-markers but DOGS don't seem to need them. Reward markers and lack of reward markers are sufficient.

-R: people use this more often than they believe. It seems to be confusing to people, however- you apply an aversive, and the second the dog exhibits the desired behavior, the aversive is removed. A dog self-correcting on a prong collar, a dog self-correcting on a taut leash, glaring angrily at the dog until the dog performs, pinning a puppy until it stops struggling. Probably the most effective way to use -R with dogs is via an ecollar.

corgipower

I would think it would be P-. You are removing the open gate in order to decrease the likelihood of them breaking the sit.

It might be a case where I'm using several quadrants in conjunction with each other, because there are actually several actions being performed in a series. I reward them for sitting and waiting by opening the gate (+R). But they have to continue to wait to be released. And if they don't, I close the gate (+P)

Or I add the open gate (as a reward) to increase the likelihood of them sitting and waiting. (+R)
Then I add the closed gate to decrease the likelihood of them breaking the sit. (+P) 
Or I remove the open gate to increase the likelihood of them sitting and waiting. (-R)
Or I remove the open gate to decrease the likelihood of them breaking the sit. (-P)

This is where I get confused on which quadrant I'm using.
Do I ask, "What is the behavior I want"? Answer: Sit and wait.
Or do I ask, "What is the behavior I don't want"? Answer: Breaking the wait.

I think there are several events chained together... Closing the gate could actually be an NRM, couldn't it? Saying, "I don't want you to get up just now, but that's an acceptable behavior at another time..." 

I have never thought to delve into the "minuses" this much but I hope to learn more.  

mudpuppy

-R: people use this more often than they believe. It seems to be confusing to people, however- you apply an aversive, and the second the dog exhibits the desired behavior, the aversive is removed. A dog self-correcting on a prong collar, a dog self-correcting on a taut leash, glaring angrily at the dog until the dog performs, pinning a puppy until it stops struggling. Probably the most effective way to use -R with dogs is via an ecollar.

mudpuppy

you don't have to teach dogs to understand -P. I mostly use -P with puppies, who respond very well to "withdrawl of attention" when they exhibit undesirable behaviors, adult dogs, not so much -P is used. People often get confused about -P and think they are applying -P when they are in fact using +R. Dog doesn't get to go outside until he sits- that's +R (he didn't have "going outside" so you couldn't have withdrawn it from him).

corgipower

Yea, but I also am going to withdraw attention throughout the day ~ as part of teaching the puppy to be alone, as part of my life when I need to go to work or run arrands or take a shower, as any number of things. How does the dog differentiate between "life goes on and you're not always the center of attention." and "i am ignoring you because you did something i didn't like?"

I understand what you're getting at now. Firstly, I think dogs, being very intelligent animals, just know. That seems silly and highly unscientific, but what I mean by that is they probably take everything in context into a situation. Our body language, how we carry ourselves, what is going on at the time the person turns away, etc. Our dogs know when we breathe deeper or faster as well as they know their own feet - it's us that don't realize our own bodies until attention is brought to them *G*. Dogs tend to read us like books, as their major form of communication is through the body rather than the voice (yes voice is a communication too, but you know what I mean - they don't speak like people do).

Thinking of examples as you gave above:
1) Part of teaching puppy to be alone.
2) Telling them you didn't like something.
3) Teaching them to follow.

The first difference I see is the  contingency factor. In order for something to be reinforcing or punishing (to be OC at all), there has to be a contingecy - if this occurs, then that happens. A behaviour has to have some sort of consequence, whether external or internal. So that sort of counts out the first one as your walking away isn't contingent upon anything the puppy does. You just walk away whenever. The third one doesn't really have any punitive contingencies (unless you use a punishment to keep them close - I'm assuming you just walk away and they follow), you just start walking. Rather the third one in itself has reinforcing contingency - if you follow me good things will happen. Chances are you coax, or give a treat, talk to the dog - somehow tell the dog that being with you is a good thing. That sheer reinforcement will cause the pup to follow you more in the future. Your entire body language, your voice, your scent, is likely welcoming.

Secondly, there is the issue of consistency. In telling a pup when it's doing something you don't like, one has to be consistent - that is walking every every time a behaviour occurs, and timing it well to actually coincide with the behaviour. In teaching your pup to be alone, when you walk away chances are it's never ever consistent with a particular behaviour. So you don't "happen" to walk every single time your pup lifts one paw, or chews on a toy. Teaching them to follow - again you aren't walking away from a behaviour the pup is doing, rather you're walking away and encouraging the pup to follow.

Thirdly, in using it as a punisher, you don't just meander off to the bathroom for a shower, or happen to go to the mall, as you would if you were doing normal leaving things. It is concerted effort to turn and walk away for a period of time and then return to try again (or, at least it's how I use it). So if the dog doesn't sit at the door, I will walk away, and a little bit later set the situation up to try again. If a dog jumps at me, I will turn my back and walk away, but will return in about 5 seconds or so to set them up to try again. And sometimes it's not even walking away, simply turning my back in general, or turning one's head to the side can have the same effect in another circumstance. Trying to think of an example....okay......If I'm sitting on the couch, for instance, and a dog is being pushy for attention, I am not about to get up and walk away. Chances are I'll shift my position to prevent the dog from being pushy and turn my head. For my dogs, they know that this turn of the head is the sitting version of the "shoving off" just as walking away would. Dogs do tend to live, for the most part, in the moment, so I don't think walking away for 5 minutes will have any stronger effect than walking away for 5-10 seconds. And one could argue that the short removal of attention or opportunity for reward is more effective since it's clear communication to the dog rather than the dog not really being sure that the 10 minute punisher was really to do with the dog's behaviour.

So it's all about the context, the consistency, and the overall intent I suppose (which predisposes our bodies, voices, balance, tenseness, etc to be a certain way depending on the context). Dogs in a lot of ways know us better than we know ourselves. I hadn't really thought about the issue of how a dog learns it, as when it's just a part of how you live with dogs it becomes habitual, almost unconcious (like driving the same route home every day - do you ever pull in your driveway and realize you don't even remember the trip home?), and the dogs respond well to it as it's what they are accustomed to (and to put it out there, even dogs that were not my own - those I worked with in a boarding kennel with varied backgrounds,  all understood P- pretty naturally it seemed as that is what I used with some dogs there with various behaviour patterns).

Kim_MacMillan

Firstly, I think dogs, being very intelligent animals, just know. That seems silly and highly unscientific, but what I mean by that is they probably take everything in context into a situation.

Excellent post, Kim! I agree 100%!

Kim - Can you tell me what quadrant(s) I'm using when I close the gate as described in my earlier posts? I really would like to understand this better. It's not that every action I take with the dogs is categorized into one of the quadrants, but I've often wondered "was that -R or +P"?  Thanks for any light you can shed on my confusion.

Reprinted so you don't have to look it up:

I'm not sure what this is. Maybe someone can help me. They're trained now, but for a while, I would have them sit at the gate and wait. Then I would open the gate slowly. If anyone broke the wait (which they did), I'd quickly close the gate again. They sit and wait and I open the gate slowly, then release them. Is that -R?