Food Rewards - For and against..

corvus

DPU, you didn't answer my question about whether refusing to give a dog a portion of your own food when they sit nicely 'asking' for it is depriving them and creating hunger.

Don't worry, I also haven't received an answer to this post:

Kim_MacMillan

I might begin to understand where you are coming from, but I'm not sure, so here goes.

DPU:

Presently I have a female-to-female dog aggression in my house and I am using food as a start to overcome this. 

 

Can you explain why you are using food in this case? What was it that has made you decide to use food rather than something else? How long have each dog been in your care? Do you consider that you have an established bond? If so, why won't simple affection work as a motivator? Or is it not a strong enough motivator for the dog to find it useful?

DPU:

Since I use food in training and behavior changes, I understand why people use food but I don't agree with its forever lifetime continued use.

 

Okay. You said you use food in behaviour changes and training. So do I (I won't speak for others). Once I teach a behaviour I fade out most food treats (virtually all, but occasionally, very rarely, I'll give them a treat for a job done particularly well), and the rewards transfer to life rewards, as you know. But if someday an issue arises and I need to reteach something, I will not hesitate to use treats for it. What about you?

You have a dog with F/F DA right now, and you are using food. Once this issue is cleared up, and you remove the use of food (much as a lot of people would do when an issue clears up). What if this dog then develops another issue? I'm not saying it will happen, but it's a hypothetical situation. If this dog develops another issues, would you then use food again in the future as a start to working on that behaviour issue?

To be honest what you are describing doesn't sound a whole lot different than what a lot of people already do. It's not exactly what I do, as I don't profess to see using food as a problem, but really you use food in training and behaviour modification just like other people do. You just tend to make it sound different when you don't address the actual issue. If you are that anti-food, why is it that you are using food? Is it possible that the hug and affection just is not the highest motivator at all times? Since you are working on the issue, the dog must have been there a sufficient amount of time since you do no training within the first month. Which makes this dog having been there awhile. If you have built up this trust with this dog, then by your theory (and I'm not dissing it, I'm just using it as you do), affection on its own should work, right? So why the food?

 I'm still waiting on an answer for this, because there is very, very (apparently) clear inconsistency between what he says he does and believes, and what he does. It sounds to me he uses food rewards just like the rest of us do, and in cases where affection is not a huge motivator at that that time.

I think I will change things, too. I have decided that just the ability to see my Minnesota Vikings sweatshirt is all the reward my dog needs and that it will be his highest reward, regardless of his personality, I wonder how well that will work. Everyone knows that dogs were domesticated because they really want to see team mascot we wear on our outer clothing.

Forgive the late reply to this. For the record we went out and there was alot of food and hugging and no dogs. Back to the topic............

Ok, you have confused me yet again DPU, I though you had hugging/affection issue's with Baily, not Barnum. And for the record I would have preferred not to debate by attacking your work as a foster, I am just unclear about this.

And I think your trying to move the topic to yet another direction, this has nothing to do with leadership or dominance. But it has alot to do with your status in the eyes of the dog. Once again I say it is all about you, and dang the feelings of the dog in question.

I taught Kord this cute little trick, high five and down low. It took 15 minutes and some leftover White Castle french fries. It all came down to wants and needs, he wanted the french fries, and I needed to do NILIF, so a trick was born. Today if you ask him to do this he gets a pat on the head, a toss of the ball, and once in a great while, food. I would not even think to hug him, he is not wired that way.

I have no delusions that my dog would ever think that affection to/from me is more important than the cocktail wieners I brought home from the party last night. He very politely sat to the side while my husband and I put the food we brought home into containers, but I could see his mind working, he was sending me signals and they were..."drop one, come on, you know you want to, do it, then you can let me eat it, come on weiner hit that floor, must beat the cat, wait, where is the cat?, she might say leave it, then the cat will get it, come on weenie you can do it, no no no, not the lid......." For the record he got a meatball instead for sitting so pretty and being polite, and this was after he had consumed over the day, 4 cups of adult kibble, half a banana, a quarter of a bologna and cheese sandwich, some cat food the boys missed and 3 gallons of water.

I believe I read a statement from you that said you thought you were the only one who your dogs greeted first, then went outside, then came into eat. I am sorry, I do not find that a credible statement that they find affection from you first and foremost in their thinking, I would call it routine, or classical conditioning. It is what you have taught them to do.

  I may be missing something by not using toys.  The most I do with toys is toss them and the dogs take off and they have a good round of play.  I don't mean to cause a raucous but I really don't play with my dogs. 

yeah, I'd say you're missing the boat entirely. I cuddle and pet and feed and treat and train and exercise my dogs, and guess what part of our interactions seems to build our bond the most? one-on-one play time with each dog. Whatever kind of play the particular dog likes- chase the dog, tug games, fetch, run with the dog, rough physical wrestling with carefully chosen dogs. After one-on-one play, the second biggest builder of bond is going out on adventures into the world together, either one-on-one or en masse as a pack. The third brick in the bond is training; and affection comes a distant fourth. Food doesn't come into it at all except as a mediator of training and keeping dogs alive.

mudpuppy

Food doesn't come into it at all except as a mediator of training and keeping dogs alive.

No?  You don't think the dog has a special regard for the person who feeds him?  You don't think handfeeding a dog is one way to help build a bond with him?   What about NILIF?  Many people want the dog to work for his meal as well as treats.  What do you think?

Chuffy

mudpuppy

Food doesn't come into it at all except as a mediator of training and keeping dogs alive.

 

No?  You don't think the dog has a special regard for the person who feeds him?  You don't think handfeeding a dog is one way to help build a bond with him?   What about NILIF?  Many people want the dog to work for his meal as well as treats.  What do you think?

I don't think anyone would disagree that NILIF or hand feeding doesn't have an impact or produce the desired results,  that is why it is done in the first place.

Chuffy

No?  You don't think the dog has a special regard for the person who feeds him?  You don't think handfeeding a dog is one way to help build a bond with him?  

I think you have a point, but this doesn't exactly ring true for Kenya.  She will not accept food from anyone she does not have a special bond with.  That means if it's not me or her previous owner, she will not eat.  She does it backwards, she has to trust before she will accept food.  This past weekend I was gone and it was the first time ever that I left and did not take her with me.  She didn't eat while I was gone.  She generally will not train for treats for anyone but me.  Lately she will do a few commands for our trainer and our club owner, mainly because they are female, very dog-savvy, and she's been exposed to them a lot.  I did use handfeeding when I first got her, mainly because I wasn't sure if she guarded and I didn't really care to find out.  Now that we have bonded, she is not at all interested in bonding with anyone else, no matter what treat they have or how long she starves herself if I'm gone.

mudpuppy

  I may be missing something by not using toys.  The most I do with toys is toss them and the dogs take off and they have a good round of play.  I don't mean to cause a raucous but I really don't play with my dogs. 

yeah, I'd say you're missing the boat entirely. I cuddle and pet and feed and treat and train and exercise my dogs, and guess what part of our interactions seems to build our bond the most? one-on-one play time with each dog. Whatever kind of play the particular dog likes- chase the dog, tug games, fetch, run with the dog, rough physical wrestling with carefully chosen dogs. After one-on-one play, the second biggest builder of bond is going out on adventures into the world together, either one-on-one or en masse as a pack. The third brick in the bond is training; and affection comes a distant fourth. Food doesn't come into it at all except as a mediator of training and keeping dogs alive.

Aw, don't you know anything?  Relationship is all about the F-R-I-S-B-E-E.  Where is the ROFLMAO smiley when you need it? 

And you call yourself a trainer??  Woman, it's all about the B A L L S!!  Don't give them no stinking frisbee.....they want BALLS! LOL!

glenmar

And you call yourself a trainer??  Woman, it's all about the B A L L S!!  Don't give them no stinking frisbee.....they want BALLS! LOL!

Bah, the best trainers know that it it doesn't matter what you throw. It's the fact that you throw it that matters *G*. Get that prey drive a'runnin! Don't you ladies know anything? Sheesh!

Chuffy:

mudpuppy:

Food doesn't come into it at all except as a mediator of training and keeping dogs alive.

 

 

No?  You don't think the dog has a special regard for the person who feeds him?  You don't think handfeeding a dog is one way to help build a bond with him?   What about NILIF?  Many people want the dog to work for his meal as well as treats.  What do you think?

nope. Met too many animals who are fed by workers, and they have no interest or relationship with their "feeder", but lots of interest and relationships with the people who train and play with the animal. It doesn't hurt to ALSO feed the animal, but it's not essential.