How much attention and training is too much?

DPU

I am there to provide for their needs and to place limits on extreme behaviors.  Pretty simple setup with very simple defined roles for everyone.

There is definately something to be said for the motto: The simpler, the better, also known as KISS

tssst

glenmar

Sometimes training just happens.  It isn't planned but an opportunity arises and its fun for all involved.  A few weeks ago Theo was hanging out in the kitchen with me while I was baking bread, and on a lark I taught him to open the fridge for me.  He thought it was great fun and is now the only one in the house with paws who "opens the fridge" for Mom.

Actually Glenda I think you are the Dog Whisperer.... your just hiding it from us...

You taught the dog to open the fridge?! Where is your emmy award... or w/e it is they give...

tssst

It seems to go on and on and I sometimes wonder if all of this training is just what people here like to talk about because training gives them something to talk about (and do with their own dogs.) Or whether it may be an obsession with some people. I don't know. Then I started thinking about how dogs just like to relax and not be bothered with what humans want them to do.

I spend probably ten times more time reading threads here than actively training my dogs.  Each dog is enrolled in one class at a time, once a week for an hour.  There are often days that I don't do any training at home besides using and proofing the commands they already know.  Kenya got two rally legs on Sunday and we last practiced on Wednesday night, lol.  I do believe that there is no beginning and end to training.  My dogs will always be enrolled in training classes no matter what level they are at.  However, they still spend more time just romping around the yard, out on walks, and playing with each other indoors than we do one-on-one training.  With Kenya I am lucky because she picks up on things quickly and doesn't have too much trouble changing contexts.  She learned "touch" in a five minute clicker session and now will "touch" anything I point to in any context.  It probably took me a few days to decide how to train this trick and then it took all of five minutes to learn it.

Recent research has shown that dogs continually given behavioral enrichment throughout their lives have a lower chance of developing canine cognitive dysfunction syndrome.  

canine cognitive dysfunction syndrome

Is this another word for, ummm, senility?

If so, I haven't seen it in any dog I have had the pleasure of being with. The lifespan of all of the dogs we have ever had range from 11 years to 15 years. And all of our dogs get plenty of mental (does this classify as behaviorial stimulation?) stimulation. There's always something new to smell under the roses, especially after a rainy day. When I take them out for a long walk and it has just rained, some of them get so nasally stimulated, that their saliva glands start to make them drewl like a mad dog frothing at the mouth. But is mental stimulation really training with the exception of scent tracking?

At any rate, what is the percentage of dogs that get CCDS who get lots of behaviorial enrichment throughout their lives in comparison to the percentage of dogs that get CCDS who lack behaviorial enrichment throughout their lives. The ratio says something as well as the precentage of the sample population.

glenmar

I taught him to open the fridge for me.  He thought it was great fun and is now the only one in the house with paws who "opens the fridge" for Mom.

See this is what I mean, if dogs have a need then they will figure it out and learn it on their own.  They seem to always have a need they want to fulfill and in doing so will learn something new.  I don't normally use a crate but new foster likes it and wants to sleep there.  So I bring one into the living room.  Low and behold, I find out that two other fosters, Marvin and Molson also love the crate and all three of them scrunched up inside.  Since the crate was there for one dog, I would close the door so the others would not go in.  Marvin, the hound learned how to open the door and I have no doubt that if the door did not auto close, Marvin would close the door.  My point is, my expectation of the dogs behavior is met in the short period of time I use to formally train the dog.  What happens after that is living life and encountering all the unexpected.

Dogs need a certain amount of time to themselves (not counting sleep, nappy time, or time where you're not present such as off to work) where they can just relax without interruption. They seem to recognize this need between themselves.

How much down time do you give your own dogs and how much training is too much? 

are you SURE they need "down time"? what are they supposed to be doing in this "down time"?  mine are either sound asleep or doing stuff, either with me or with each other. I've never seen one "just relax".

How much training is too much- well, if you treat training as fun play time, then I have to say my dogs vote for "there aren't enough hours in the day to be trained".

glenmar

A few weeks ago Theo was hanging out in the kitchen with me while I was baking bread, and on a lark I taught him to open the fridge for me.  He thought it was great fun and is now the only one in the house with paws who "opens the fridge" for Mom.

I'm visualizing an automatic treat dispensing machine here.

mudpuppy

I've never seen one "just relax".

I do very little training with my dog anymore. I worked a lot with him as a puppy and young dog to ensure that he had all the basics. He has all the "goodies" I required of him to live nicely in our family. I did not get my dog so I would have something to train. I got him for a companion - which he is perfect at. We play around a lot with balls and stuffies. We go for our daily exercise. We run errands together. We just hang out together most of the time. Once in a while I'll try a new game. If he gets it fine - if not that's fine too! I think the only training I actually do is simply reinforcing what he has all ready learned - which I rarely have to do. Other than that we just play and hang out.

tssst

How much down time do you give your own dogs and how much training is too much?

Right now, at this time of year, they get a lot of down time. The past month and a half I haven't "taught" anything at all. Other than that, they go out for potty break/run (we have a very large fenced in backyard) about a dozen short periods a day - the temperatures are far too cold to stay out long (I'm talking -30 degrees Celsius range here today, as an example), and the snow is too deep to go into the wooded trails or in the back field. Other than that they are having their own "down time" the rest of the day, with bouts of play in the house in between as they feel like it, or some stuffed Kongs or bully sticks, or some quick tug, etc.

The most I teach in a structured teaching session, is about 1/2 hour per day, broken into several teaching sessions throughout the day (that is if I'm working on a totally new behaviour). But really every day learning occurs, such as the dishwasher is mine, or not to steal food, or to sit nicely to be petted, etc. These are things that happen in everyday interactions, but I consider them different than structured teaching time (like school!)

How much is too much? Really, my only answer is when the dog (and human) stop having fun. I say it that way, because it can differ for every dog, and even for each dog it differs depending on age (puppies need less/shorter time than older dogs do) and personality.

tssst

I guess that the reason that I posted this topic is that most everywhere I look in this section of these boards, everyone seems to be talking about training for this, training using food as motivators, training using clicker markers, etc. It seems to go on and on and I sometimes wonder if all of this training is just what people here like to talk about because training gives them something to talk about (and do with their own dogs.) Or whether it may be an obsession with some people. I don't know. Then I started thinking about how dogs just like to relax and not be bothered with what humans want them to do.

We talk about it because we feel those are effective ways to learn. Gaci has a huge repertoire of known behaviours. But she's four years old, so over a period of four years they can add up easily, considering I can usually teach her a behaviour in a couple of days. Shimmer, at one year old, know her basic obedience (trial-style) and Rally behaviours, and a few other tricks. Much less than Gaci, but a pretty good amount, I'm sure by the time she's four she'll have a good number of known behaviours too. It's not like we sit around with a clicker all day and just click, click, click! And it's certainly not an obsession...lol! Yes, some of us like to teach a wide variety of behaviours for dogs, as the dogs love to learn and it keeps them mentally stimulated as well as building those wonderful synapses in the brain. But it doesn't mean it's all we do night and day. I am in university full-time, and I work part-time *G*. I simply don't have time to sit and play with clickers all day, nor would I wish to. Teaching is a valuable part of living with my guys, and it is a very social time between us, and gives them an opportunity to use the brain their mama's gave them. ;-) But my dogs certainly get 50x more down time and "on their own" time than they do teaching time. For the most part my dogs live a very unstructured and relaxed life, so they can play in the home (or out), they have constant access to a wide range of toys, they can sleep if they want, get some snuggles if they want, or just bathe in the sun coming in the living room window.

denise m

I did not get my dog so I would have something to train. I got him for a companion - which he is perfect at.

Oh yes, mine are perfect at that too, nor do I get any of my non-human family members to have "something to train". If I wanted something simply to train, I'd buy the Sniffy software that I used all last semester to teach my virtual rats lots of fun things. *G*

But, my dogs happen to love to learn. They are creative, thinking beings, that like to use that brain inside their heads. So in being their companion, and teaching (for my dogs and I anyhow) being a very social interaction, it's a mutual pleasure we get to take part in together. The dog loves it, I love it, and we both end up happy and tired (mentally and/or physically). A great companionship if you ask me!

Not wanting to teach your dog after 18 months of age is fine. But, wanting to teach your dog after 18 months of age, spending that extra time and bond-building with your dogs, and dogs loving to learn, that's fine too. Just a difference in lifestyles. Neither is better than the other, just different.

If you're talking "structured, formal training sessions" I'd say we do less than 15 minutes per day per older dogs, younger dogs get about twice that in two or three sessions. But we stick little informal "play and life" training in throughout the course of the day- go running, practice a few recalls enroute; play frisbee, practice behaviors in exchange for getting the frisbee; spend 1 minute doing a free-shaping session; you have to "practice your manners" throughout the day if you want dinner, to go outside, etc. Basically every minute spent with us is "training" in a way, and I'm sure that's not different for anyone else. You get what you reinforce.

tssst

I'm visualizing an automatic treat dispensing machine here.

Is that similar to the treat dispensing butler?

The only time Theo is allowed to open the fridge is when I attach "his" dish towel to the door handle and when he is given the verbal cue.  He hasn't attempted to take advantage of that.

And Pap?  Unlike Cesar, I actually come MUCH closer to a whisper.

Well  I know Remco (bomb detection dog from Afghanastan) he needed down time, as did Boris (counter part from Iraq)...HOwever I know multiple malinois K9s who dont know what to do with "down time".  I think Nora would go like the energizer bunny if I had the time and mental capacity to challenge her.   She has however learned to deal with down time.   Belgians typically should be "constantly in motion unless under command" sort of discounts the idea of down time.  (quote from the original standards of the breed in the AKC)

That is not to say that dogs dont need breaks and rest.  Depending on breeding lines, hard wiring etc.  some dogs are more up and active in a manner that can seem 24/7.    Now my Dobermans were far more likely to benefit from down time, it was almost as if they were thinking about the last training between sessions.