the role of punishment

snownose

mudpuppy

Last pup I raised has never even been given an EH EH. If you set your dog up to succeed, he won't make mistakes, and you'll have zero opportunities to correct. Punishment is often used as a substitute for skill.

 

Substitute for skill? Laughable..........what you create by not letting that pup experience some punishment could be very harmful to the pup by interacting with other dogs that dish out punishment......

Yes, but dog punishment and people punishment is very different--unless you regularly jump your dogs and make growly noises when they do something wrong--which I doubt.  I do think that dogs know the difference.  Most pups are corrected by their mothers and at least get feedback from their litter mates.  If the pup is properly socialized with other dogs from the start, I don't see using no "corrections" would be an issue at all.  From what I have seen, most adult dogs prefer to ignore the misbehaviors of young pups rather than punish right away anyway.  Part of the socialization process is learning to interact with other dogs, from other dogs.  nothing a person can teach a dog can substitute that. 

I also wanted to add that yes, punishment  can be and often is absolutely used as a substitute for skill--I could name off several examples from people in my own life if you would like.  There can be a place for it but it has to be carefully approached, as it is the most easily abused of all aspects of training, IMHO.        

sillysally

Yes, but dog punishment and people punishment is very different--unless you regularly jump your dogs and make growly noises when they do something wrong--which I doubt. 

I use verbal correction, and yes, that works great....and no, I don't have to do it all the time....basically, the dogs get the picture in no time at all for just about anything......even when fresh meat is in the grocery bag I just brought in, and one of the dogs is trying to find out where that lovely smell is coming from....a quick "Ah, ah" means....stop now....

sillysally

  From what I have seen, most adult dogs prefer to ignore the misbehaviors of young pups rather than punish right away anyway.

You said it...."Most dogs".........Rumour got nipped by Luke when tiny Rumour was sticking his head in Luke's bowl.....and he got nipped when he harrassed Luke by jumping on him several times.....

snownose

sillysally

Yes, but dog punishment and people punishment is very different--unless you regularly jump your dogs and make growly noises when they do something wrong--which I doubt. 

 

I use verbal correction, and yes, that works great....and no, I don't have to do it all the time....basically, the dogs get the picture in no time at all for just about anything......even when fresh meat is in the grocery bag I just brought in, and one of the dogs is trying to find out where that lovely smell is coming from....a quick "Ah, ah" means....stop now....

 

I sometimes use verbal correction too, and yes, it does work but I have no doubt that both of my dogs know the difference between my human corrections and the corrections that come from other dogs.  I have seen both of them show their bellies to dogs that were correcting them--neither of them have ever done that with DH and I.  They clearly know it's a different ball game.  Therefore, I have serious doubts that whether or not you use correction with a pup makes any difference at all once it comes to dog on dog interactions, if the pup is being socialized like a pup should be socialized.  Pups learn dog manners in the litter first--we really are no substitute for what nature has already provided in the way of interacting with other canines. 

sillysally

I sometimes use verbal correction too, and yes, it does work but I have no doubt that both of my dogs know the difference between my human corrections and the corrections that come from other dogs.

If the correction comes from me or another pack member....it means all the same "Stop now".....putting a stop to an unwanted behavior has been accomplished....I don't need to see the belly of said dog....as long as he stops, I am happy....

mudpuppy

If you set your dog up to succeed, he won't make mistakes,

In what kind of a world is it right for an animal not to make any mistakes? Not a natural world. Not any world I want to live in. If you want to set your dogs up in artificial circumstances where they never make mistakes, just to avoid punishment, have at it. But, that is NOT the kind of thing I desire for my dogs.

sillysally

Yes, but dog punishment and people punishment is very different--unless you regularly jump your dogs and make growly noises when they do something wrong--which I doubt.  I do think that dogs know the difference.

Oh, I think they know the difference, too. My dogs are trilingual, at least. They most definitely understand my language and the language we have developed together, as well as "dog". So when I give corrections, they understand it as well as they understand them in "dog", but I'm not speaking "dog". So what if I don't do it just like a dog does? As long as they understand the message, what's the problem?

FourIsCompany

mudpuppy

If you set your dog up to succeed, he won't make mistakes,

In what kind of a world is it right for an animal not to make any mistakes? Not a natural world. Not any world I want to live in. If you want to set your dogs up in artificial circumstances where they never make mistakes, just to avoid punishment, have at it. But, that is NOT the kind of thing I desire for my dogs.

sillysally

Yes, but dog punishment and people punishment is very different--unless you regularly jump your dogs and make growly noises when they do something wrong--which I doubt.  I do think that dogs know the difference.

 

Oh, I think they know the difference, too. My dogs are trilingual, at least. They most definitely understand my language and the language we have developed together, as well as "dog". So when I give corrections, they understand it as well as they understand them in "dog", but I'm not speaking "dog". So what if I don't do it just like a dog does? As long as they understand the message, what's the problem?

You are missing my point.  My point is not that correction from a person is always a bad thing.  My point is that I do not buy that telling your puppy "Eh, eh" when he heads for the garbage somehow prepares him for social interaction with other dogs.

sillysally

My point is that I do not buy that telling your puppy "Eh, eh" when he heads for the garbage somehow prepares him for social interaction with other dogs.

I don't think Carla was claiming that at all.....she feels the same I do.....dogs have a way to communicate with each other as do we with dogs.....

The more I hear about this hands off, never issue a correction or providing a dog a total sterile, articificial and disconnected environment  ....where clicks and treats turn into a dog preferring the click over human touch , the more I am turned against it.....

In what kind of a world is it right for an animal not to make any mistakes? Not a natural world. Not any world I want to live in. If you want to set your dogs up in artificial circumstances where they never make mistakes, just to avoid punishment, have at it. But, that is NOT the kind of thing I desire for my dogs.

what's so terrific about mistakes? I've never been glad that I made a mistake, although I have certainly learned from them; but how wonderful if I could have just done it right the first time.

You can teach a dog to do anything, with them never making a mistake, by gradually escalating your criteria. I've been teaching one dog to "find my keys" cause I think that sounds very useful. She has found the keys 100% of the time (zero mistakes), starting out with them sitting in front of her, to digging them out from under a pile of leaves after searching enthusiastically for twenty minutes. 

Or, if that is too esoteric for you, you can teach a dog to never take food off the counter by gradually escalating your criteria. In this situation, it is actually CRITICAL to never let the dog make a mistake- if the dog figures out he can reward himself by stealing food, the entire training process will fail for certain; and if you let the dog make a mistake in order to inflict a punishment, the usual result is a dog who only steals food when you aren't looking.

Or coming when called- 99% of folks will strongly recommend you never let the dog make a mistake (not recall) during the training process, because it will teach the dog he can ignore the command. So you say I'll just give him a correction with the long line- well, have you heard of the study where they trained dogs to recall, one group with pure rewards, and one using a mix of rewards and  "correct with the long line": in the end, the dogs who were never corrected developed a much more reliable recall. Many people who have given long-line corrections find out they've trained their dogs to come only when the dog is on a line. It works much better to set the dog up to never make a mistake when training this critical skill.

Applies to all behaviors- mistakes are best avoided if at all possible because the dog learns faster and develops greater reliability.

This is where the "absence of skill" comes in- people who are not skilled in gradual shaping, or who skip proofing steps, are the people who end up with dogs who make mistakes, and then feel they have to correct those mistakes.

mudpuppy

and if you let the dog make a mistake in order to inflict a punishment, the usual result is a dog who only steals food when you aren't looking.

Incorrect, the correction is given before the dog can get to the food, and the dog then realizes to just let it be.....it seems to me you don't understand when to use a correction.....

On another forum someone posted at the end of their rope with their countersurfing dalmation. They'd brought a trainer in who suggested the following: bait the counter with something tasty then put a booby trap up. As it turns out, the reinforcement supplied by the food was much stronger than any punishment the Counter Monster could dish out and their dog only got more enthusiastic about surfing. Big time back-fire.

I'd rather just spend a couple months keeping the counters clean and the trash behind closed doors so nosy curious new doggies in the house never realize there's anything good up there that they can get. It's more work on the front end (though frankly some of the things people do to "set up" and then elaborately punish their dogs sound like an awful lot of work), but more reliable on the back.

mudpuppy

This is where the "absence of skill" comes in- people who are not skilled in gradual shaping, or who skip proofing steps, are the people who end up with dogs who make mistakes, and then feel they have to correct those mistakes.

houndlove

On another forum someone posted at the end of their rope with their countersurfing dalmation. They'd brought a trainer in who suggested the following: bait the counter with something tasty then put a booby trap up. As it turns out, the reinforcement supplied by the food was much stronger than any punishment the Counter Monster could dish out and their dog only got more enthusiastic about surfing. Big time back-fire.

I can't speak for every dog in this world, but I have no issues....I even have a baker's rack as a food storage area.....a smorgas board for a food thief.......not at my house.....

mudpuppy

what's so terrific about mistakes? I've never been glad that I made a mistake, although I have certainly learned from them; but how wonderful if I could have just done it right the first time.

I think this is flawed thinking. I have made many mistakes in my life and have learned from them. I am THANKFUL for my mistakes, because they are my teachers. I know people who are so protective of their children, not wanting the kids to make the same mistakes they did or to learn from the mistakes the parents made...  It doesn't work that way. What you end up with is a kid who doesn't know what it's like to make a mistake. They didn't learn anything, they were protected from it. They don't know failure and can't handle it.

Now, since we're not talking about people, but dogs, I believe it's a little different, but the basic message prevails. Making a mistake is one way of learning. If I prevented my dog from EVER stepping in a cactus, I'd be following him around all the time preventing him from brushing against a cactus and he would NEVER learn that he should avoid them. As it is, all my dogs know the different varieties of cactus and how dangerous each one is. They were "punished" by the cactus and now they carry that knowledge.

I don't think it would be wonderful to never have made a mistake! I think it would be terrible! I wouldn't be who I am. I wouldn't know what I know.  

mudpuppy

Or, if that is too esoteric for you, you can teach a dog to never take food off the counter by gradually escalating your criteria.

I have taught my dogs not to take food off the counter and they've never made a mistake. Cara and Mia have perfect recall. I can do everything you talk about doing. You can call it "absence of skill" if that makes you feel better, but there is no absence of skill here. If there were, I wouldn't have the excellent results I do.

corgipower

In fact, in order to *properly* use corrections, IME, takes a great deal of skill.

Hear! Hear! Maybe that's what mudpuppy is talking about. People who don't know how to issue corrections properly.  

 mudpuppy, do you EVER use +P?