the role of punishment

mudpuppy

But the no-punishment method of training works far better.

I absolutely believe that FOR YOU, it does!

mudpuppy

Go try it and see- how can you possibly claim +P works better than no punishment if you've never tried it?

I've tried it! I hated it! Not all people respond to situations the same way you do. Not all dogs respond to situations the same way yours do. People are different. Dogs are different. Situations and circumstances are different. You have found your dog-training "religion" and punishment is Satan. But it's not that way for everybody.

 See, to me this is one of those "it depends on the dog" things.  The way I see it there is punishment (although I I prefer to call it correction, because that's what I think it is) and then there is PUNISHMENT.  I have seen punishment overused to the point that it was, IMHO, abuse--and when I say that I'm talking about repeatedly striking a dog on the nose or other part of the body--sometimes with a hand and sometimes with an object.  I work with a guy who proudly talks about how he "beats" his dog, and therefore the dog listens to him.

However, I doubt anyone on here participates in *that* sort of punishment.  I like to watch my dogs and see what they use.  Sally will generally ignore first, then correct, although sometimes she jumps straight to correction.  Jack's thing is ignoring--he is very big into that.  I've seen him ignore dogs that were attacking him.  Actually, he often ignores Sally's corrections.  She corrects him, he's like "Whatever Sally" and just goes and does what he wants anyway.

I use corrections, but I do it differently with both dogs.  Jack probably requires it more than Sally.  They both know "leave it," but where you can say "leave it" to Sally and she will, Jack (who does know exactly what "leave it" means) will often decide that if you are telling him to leave something, it must extremely cool.  So I'll give him a "hey" and he stops.  I also occasionally have to body block him.  Sometimes if they are both getting too rowdy I put them in long down stay "time outs."

BTW-turning our backs worked for Sally to get her to stop jumping.  If you tried to knee her she just thought you were trying to play and got even more excited. 

mudpuppy

Go try it and see- how can you possibly claim +P works better than no punishment if you've never tried it?

FourIsCompany

I have no such judgment. I view punishment as information FOR the dog. It's one way I communicate to the dog what is and is not acceptable behavior. It's the way I say, "That is not what I want. This is what I want." It's clarifying for the dog what it is I'm going for in his behavior.

If I were to use ONLY reward and never use punishment, I would only be giving 1/2 the information I have available. I would be saying, in essence, "This is what I want. This is what I want. This is what I want." That doesn't tell the dog when he's doing something that I don't want.

So, the reason I use punishment is to inform the dog. It's to give this intelligent and discerning animal as much information as possible to help him succeed. Does he NEED this information? Maybe not. But why should I withhold it? This isn't some dumb animal who can't tell if he should be afraid of me or not. It's not an insecure, psychologically-messed up, lower being. This is an extremely intelligent animal capable of choice, emotion and thought. The more information I can give him, the better.

Since dogs do what works, I think giving constant "this is what I want" input makes them less likely to offer things you don't want (which gives you very little, if nothing to punish). When they are self-rewarding it's definately more challenging but that is where management comes in. If you consistently and clearly mark&reward what you want, ignore and manage the rest I don't see how you could possibly end up with anything but a brilliantly behaved dog.  The key of course is the handlers ability to consistently and clearly say "this is what I want". 

Using punishment on my hound would have exacerbated his already aloof and independent nature and wouldn't dent his pain threshold.   Not only does his lack of handler focus mean that punishment would further alienate him but punishments would also be a forever thing - there would always be leash pops because sniffing engulfs him and will always be rewarding no matter what or how many corrections I ever inflict. Any punishment to break his attention would have to be extremely harsh and that would not IMO put him in any state to understand that "she doesn't want that" (not that he would even care what I want in the first place). Dodger had to learn it was rewarding to interact and punishment could not do that.

All in all I find punishment very limiting.  I have to be in close proximity to administer it. It is reactive not proactive. It is not conducive to learning or problem solving. And its about ME controlling the dog when I would much rather have him exhibit self-control.

mudpuppy

Definition: for the purposes of this discussion, punishment is something the owner directly applies to the dog in an attempt to get the dog to stop doing THAT forever. Not environmentally-applied punishment, and not no-reward markers, which are intended to suggest the dog try a different behavior but feel free to continue to perform that behavior again in future (as, for example, you're working on sit and the dog offers a down. You say uh-oh to indicate that wasn't what you wanted; but certainly at times in the future you will want the dog to offer a down).

Non-punishment-based approach to stop-jumping: puppy jumps up, you "withdraw" attention, the second puppy feet hit the ground you praise and shower puppy with attention.

Probable result: puppy quickly stops jumping up on YOU. He, however, continues to jump up on visitors, strangers, and your elderly mother. You consult a trainer, who suggests you place the puppy in a sit, instruct the stranger to only pet the puppy if the puppy remains sitting, and after much training you have a dog who now sits politely to greet everyone.

It is hard to discuss punishment because it is SO variable.  I consider a leash pop punishment but its not about what I think - its about what the dog thinks (and Dodger definately wouldn't consider it punishment)... But take my friends BC and you have a dog who avoids leash pops at all costs...

So IMO, withdrawing attention could be punishment for certain dogs and most definately for puppies. Is it a punishment I am willing to use? Yes because I am not physically manipulating the dog but for some dogs/puppies, withdrawing attention is more than enough punishment.

I am still dependent on punishment! I clear my throat when Dodger is about to scavenge for food.  The sound I make is a warning that he will be put on-leash if he goes for the "tasty" morsel (being on-leash is very punishing for Dodger). I may not be physically applying something to him yet but its clearly punishing enough. 

jetty

I think giving constant "this is what I want" input makes them less likely to offer things you don't want

jetty

And its about ME controlling the dog when I would much rather have him exhibit self-control.

I've tried it! I hated it! Not all people respond to situations the same way you do. Not all dogs respond to situations the same way yours do. People are different. Dogs are different. Situations and circumstances are different. You have found your dog-training "religion" and punishment is Satan. But it's not that way for everybody.

Again, I ask you, how can you possibly know? Corgipower's stance that eventually you need to incorporate some punishment into the final steps of proofing is indeed a common belief and I concede it may actually be true for some dogs and some behaviors; I however strongly maintain that using punishment early in the training process is detrimental for all dogs all trainers and all behaviors. Especially when applied to puppies. Back when everyone trained the traditional way of praise and collar pops even the most brutal of trainers admitted that applying punishments to puppies was detrimental- one did not start to formally train puppies until they were at least six months old back then for fear of damaging the pup's psyche, and people who needed very drivey dogs often waited until the dog was two years old before commencing formal training.

I don't believe your claim that you tried it- you have stated that one of the first things you do with your puppies is "pin" them to convince them that your capable of killing them if you want to. I challenge you: enroll one of your dogs in a clicker-trick training class and see how you feel after that.

mudpuppy

Corgipower's stance that eventually you need to incorporate some punishment into the final steps of proofing is indeed a common belief and I concede it may actually be true for some dogs and some behaviors; I however strongly maintain that using punishment early in the training process is detrimental for all dogs all trainers and all behaviors. Especially when applied to puppies. Back when everyone trained the traditional way of praise and collar pops even the most brutal of trainers admitted that applying punishments to puppies was detrimental- one did not start to formally train puppies until they were at least six months old back then for fear of damaging the pup's psyche, and people who needed very drivey dogs often waited until the dog was two years old before commencing formal training.

mudpuppy

FourIsCompany

I've tried it!

I don't believe your claim that you tried it-

you have stated that one of the first things you do with your puppies is "pin" them to convince them that your capable of killing them if you want to.

I challenge you: enroll one of your dogs in a clicker-trick training class

I have read about clicker training. I have done clicker training, whether you believe me or not. I have videos of clicker training my puppy, Jaia. I don't like the personality (Edit: I mean behavior) of clicker-trained dogs. I don't want that for me or my dogs. I know it "works" for what some people want, but if I don't want the result, why should I do it?

So what exactly is the personality of a clicker trained dog?  I have never heard of it changing a dog's personality.  It's just a tool for training--you might as well say that using a leash changes a dog's personality.  If what you mean is that you don't like a dog that is highly food motivated and often in it for themselves, then I've got to tell you that that has nothing to do with clicker training.  I don't do clicker training with Jack and he is food motivated to the extreme and has been since day one, and he has always been concerned with what's in it for him.

My personal experience is that it has more to do with a dog being more creative and bold.  Different dog personalities are going to display different levels of these traits just anyway, and a "hard" dog trained with some mild punishments may retain these traits to a much greater degree than a soft dog trained with lots of punishments (just to go to both extremes of that spectrum), but you've got a greater chance of having a bold, creative, actively thinking dog the more you use marker training and the less you use punishments. Punishments by definition tell a dog what not to do, and tell a dog enough times not to do things and they start to not do anything. It's definitely on a spectrum--one punishment is not going to shut most dogs down, or even 10 punishments, but eventually it will happen with many dogs, especially softer ones. Reinforcements tell a dog what to do and if you're constantly telling a dog do that! and that! and that! do more of that! it creates a dog more willing to actively engage with the world around them.

sillysally

So what exactly is the personality of a clicker trained dog?

Sorry, I'm usually very precise about my wording, but I was in a hurry. That was definitely the wrong word for me to use. Behavior. That's the right word. I don't like the behavior of a clicker trained dog. I don't want my dogs offering behaviors when they want something. I don't like the feeling of "urgency" and "anxiety" and "'stress" I see in the eyes of a dog who is trying to figure out what to do during a session. There's a lot more I feel about it (negative) but I don't really want to go into it because I know some people really like it and I don't want to appear to be attacking the method. I'm not. I don't have any problem with other people doing it with their dogs, it's just NOT what I want for me and mine.

Jaia is also a "What's in it for me"? dog, so I hear you on that.

Dog_ma

What I find different about dog, from goldfish or cats, is their social structure and the natural importance of feedback on what not to do. Feedback on what not to do = punishment. In scientific, OC terms. Jeesh. I'm not making up the terms or the definitions. If a social animal is motivated not to piss off group members, then feedback about what not to do makes that behavior less likely.

Yesss........for God's sake folks.......just watch a group of dogs and you(general) will quickly find out how things are run in the dog world.....I witness punishment dished out by each of my dogs everyday.....the little slight warning growls, showing of teeth....even body language tells each dog what is unwanted behavior......why are so many people trying to cut out what comes natural to a social animal?

mudpuppy

Last pup I raised has never even been given an EH EH. If you set your dog up to succeed, he won't make mistakes, and you'll have zero opportunities to correct. Punishment is often used as a substitute for skill.

Substitute for skill? Laughable..........what you create by not letting that pup experience some punishment could be very harmful to the pup by interacting with other dogs that dish out punishment......

snownose

Dog_ma

What I find different about dog, from goldfish or cats, is their social structure and the natural importance of feedback on what not to do. Feedback on what not to do = punishment. In scientific, OC terms. Jeesh. I'm not making up the terms or the definitions. If a social animal is motivated not to piss off group members, then feedback about what not to do makes that behavior less likely.

 

Yesss........for God's sake folks.......just watch a group of dogs and you(general) will quickly find out how things are run in the dog world.....I witness punishment dished out by each of my dogs everyday.....the little slight warning growls, showing of teeth....even body language tells each dog what is unwanted behavior......why are so many people trying to cut out what comes natural to a social animal?

Yes, but punishment is NOT the only thing that dogs use.  I have seen Sally use redirection with Jack, and Jack is the master of the ignore.  Actually, the only one of the two that "punishes" is Sally, and Jack will quite often completely ignore her and do what he wants anyway.  This has been the case with our side door.  Jack will often jump up on the door (when they are outside) to see if I am preparing breakfast.  Sally would jump on him and do a growly thing (sometimes to the point where he would yelp).  Jack would be like "Whatever" and jump back up on the door and Sally would jump on him and do the growly thing, etc.  It has gotten to the point that Sally has given up and Jack now jumps on the door without punishment, although she will occasionally just do it randomly.  

Therefore, if I try to learn from my dogs, punishment is ineffective on at least one of them in certain situations.  If Jack wants what he wants badly enough he will just wear whoever is trying to stop him down-that's just what he does.  This is something I have recently realized, and I am going to have to change how I deal with him a bit.