The behaviour interpretation thread

Ok, in relation to the video, the dog's behavior and your post about the situation in the other thread:

It seems that you actually dont do anything to teach Jill that the behavior she is having is rude towards Penny and annoying, therefore:

corvus

She's made up her mind about something and didn't want or need my input. My experience with Penny is that once she's made up her mind on her own, there's not much I can do to change it

I would have to disagree here, she REALLY needs your input, she REALLY needs you to step up and tell Jill that her behavior its annoying, that Jill its not respecting personal space, but Penny has learned that you actually, like it was shown on the video, wont do anything about it, therefore just as always, she wont expect you to step up because you never did before 

corvus

If Penny is worried about something and doesn't look to me for reassurance, I figure it's fine to offer affection.

Which only nurtures the worried behavior, for Penny you are giving her permission to be worried, not that she does not have the right to feel that way but petting her in that state of mind is actually "adding oil to the fire", maybe not to have a bigger worry but at least to know to repeat the behavior over and over

corvus

I'm also not especially bothered that she doesn't like loud noises or Jill dumping a rope toy on her. She hates it. That's her.

Fair enough but my question is, what do you do to prevent that and help her? a typical mistake its letting fear, aggression, anxiety, etc. to continue because "thats the way the dog is", I am not saying to correct Penny, no, like i said before, you should teach Jill to stop that behavior because that annoys Penny, just like if your brother or sister were punching you in the arm and your parents dont do anything about it because you being angry at them its "the way you are", no, you expect your parents to address the situation and stop it

corvus

I always kinda laugh at her when she gets upset about Jill and the rope toy because she gets so pouty about it.It's funny seeing a dog get pouty

For you it might be "cute" but your dog its actually under stress 

corvus

As for the sound, I do think it helps her to give affection when big sounds worry her.

Actually i think its the opposite, just like in the last example, giving affection reassures the fear, maybe if you were not giving affection and act like if nothing happened she would already realized that big sounds are part of the world, there is nothing to be worried about and she would not be scared at all in the first place

corvus

she did snarl a little bit at Jill when she came by. It's not the rope toy Penny dislikes or is anxious about, it's Jill when she's in playing mode. When Penny is trying to get some loving off the people, Jill comes barreling in and dumps rope toys and dances around without looking where she's going. Sometimes she steps on Penny or whacks her in the face with her tail, sometimes she steps on the people, and usually the person that was patting Penny stops patting her to throw the rope toy and then the whole horrible cycle starts again. I think that Penny really hates it when Jill comes prancing up with a rope toy. She's anxious that Jill will step on her or hurt her and is annoyed that Jill is muscling in on her affection time. When she's in the mood, Penny will have quite a lot of fun chasing Jill with the rope toy, but when she's in affection seeking mode, Jill and her rope toy ruins everything. I've got another video of Penny growling at Jill and basically storming off to sulk just a few minutes later, but I thought this one was more interesting. You can kinda see both the anxiety and the irritation in the expressions on her face. She pokes her tongue out a few times, which I interpret as anxiety, or a calming signal brought on by a touch of anxiety, but she also grumbles and the way she looks at Jill and the rope toy seems to say both that she's uncomfortable with how close they are to her and that she wants Jill to stay away from her and me.

I really think that you should not let Jill to do it, that Jill should respect your "me and Penny time", just like in the last example with the parents and having your siblings punching you in the arm in front of them and with out them doing nothing about it 

I hope you dont take this as a "you should not have dogs, blah, blah, blah" kind of thing because its not, i'm just analyzing what is see and read and giving you my input about it, you are free to do all, some or anything about it because if that works for you then thats great, if something that i said could help you in any way thats even better

Excellent idea for a thread, corvus!

Here's my clip.

Carl, thank you for sharing the video.

What was most pronounce to me in the video is when the sirens started, the pup was startled and appeared frightened.  The pup then started fleeing but not in your directions.  When the pup saw you, then the pup stopped and I could see the pup get some confidence back.  Not until the end of the film did I realize how far away from you the pup was.  I'll bet if he was closer he would have been more inquisitive about the sirens.

Spence, thanks, but I'm not really interested in changing any of the behaviours of any of the dogs in this video. When Penny first moved in with Jill and Pyry, she really quite hated Jill and often snapped at her when she got clumsy and trod on her. Pyry did it often when Jill was a puppy, as well. Didn't make much difference. When I was living there for 6 months, I tried for a little while to teach Jill that no one really likes to be trodden on. She didn't ever make the connection that when you tread on people, they yelp and withdraw. She didn't get it that when you tread on people, they growl at you. She doesn't know that she's treading on people.

Over the last couple of years, she's gotten a little better, but only by letting the dogs sort it out themselves. When Penny has had enough, she snaps at Jill. Jill learnt to a small degree that Penny sometimes snaps at her when she dumps a rope toy too close. I think in the video you might notice that Jill doesn't make a move to pick up the rope toy when it's right next to Penny. She doesn't because she knows Penny will probably snap at her. If she does pick it up when it's that close, she keeps her body away and leans in to snatch it with her head. As socially inept as she is, Penny has managed to change her behaviour where I failed. 

In other situations where Jill gets in Penny's space and starts whacking her tail in her face, I will shield her. I can tuck her between my feet and fend Jill off. If Penny really wanted to spend time with me, she appreciates that, but if she's not that fussed, she just walks away and waits for Jill to settle down and leave me alone. I think it's a good thing she has learnt some patience from Jill's social clumsiness, and if she really wants special time with me, she knows she can get it and she'll stand her ground around Jill. I'm very much of the opinion that the dogs do best when left to work it out amongst themselves. We can't always be there to protect Penny from Jill's clumsiness, or Pyry for that matter. They both have to learn to live with it, and they have. We don't get fights over Jill's clumsiness anymore. Penny is 12 and she's a big girl. She can handle herself well in most situations. I don't see myself as rewarding anxious behaviour but acknowlegding it. Believe it or not, Penny is much calmer about things if I let her know I understand she's upset and to what degree with a pat and a soothing word or two. I've come to the conlcusion that if I don't respond, she thinks I haven't realised there's something to be upset about and that actually makes her more anxious.

I would like it if no one offered owner advice on this thread unless specifically asked for, even if it seems like something you can barely keep your mouth shut over. The spirit of the thread is to interpret dog behaviour, not whether the behaviour should be allowed or whether the owner is doing something wrong. I don't mind if you say it regarding anything I post, but don't expect me to pay any attention unless you back it up with something compelling.

Thanks for posting the video, Carla. We're heading off to the beach, but I'll check it out tonight. Yay!  

ETA: I think Jill should respect me and Penny time, too, but she doesn't. That's Jill. Jill will leave us alone if I ignore the rope toy, but if I really want time with Penny, I take her away from the other two anyway. Better quality time that way. 

 Carla, what I saw in the clip is Jaia (it was Jaia, right?) hears the siren and he looks quite unsure for a few moments while he tries to decide if it's a bad thing. When he hears the tone of your voice, which is both cheerful and soothing, he decides the best course of action is to come to you.

I think the way his tail is held low, his ears kinda down and slightly turned outwards (it's hard to see in a puppy!), and the widening of his eyes tell us that he's unsure and a little spooked. His ears seem to come forward somewhat and his head goes down when he comes to you, which I read as an easing of tension. 

I want a puppy!

corvus

Spence, thanks, but I'm not really interested in changing any of the behaviours of any of the dogs in this video. When Penny first moved in with Jill and Pyry, she really quite hated Jill and often snapped at her when she got clumsy and trod on her. Pyry did it often when Jill was a puppy, as well. Didn't make much difference. When I was living there for 6 months, I tried for a little while to teach Jill that no one really likes to be trodden on. She didn't ever make the connection that when you tread on people, they yelp and withdraw. She didn't get it that when you tread on people, they growl at you. She doesn't know that she's treading on people.

The pair remind me so much of my older dog and our young collie X!  Now, I don't think our young collieX was very well socialised as a puppy.  I think for a long time she didn't "get" that others don't really like being pushed or trampled, because no one has ever really told her so.  I didn't think it's OK for her to carry on with that delusion, because it was not fair on my older, tolerant, patient dog who put up with so much of her cr@p.  Looking at the video again, I think she might be looking at you hoping you will do something to stop Jill, but I think I'm letting my bias creep in here, sorry!

I have been video taping my dogs this weekend and also then watching the video.  I don't interfer at all as they interact.  Fastinating behavior!

I have a question.  I can upload the video stick but that is only one minute of videoing.  When I use the tape feature of the camera, I can video for a long time.  But, I can't upload because my pc is not equipped to upload tape.  At work, I can upload because they have the right "wire" and connector.   Here is my question.  How long (in minutes) does Youtube accept?  I have tapings for 3 minutes, 6 minutes, and 12 minutes. 

DPU, From their site: "Videos uploaded through YouTube's Single File Uploader have to be under the 100MB file size limit. The longer the video is, the more compression will be required to fit it into that size. For that reason, most videos on YouTube are under five minutes long and there is a 10-minute length limit for all videos."

I'd probably pick a behavior you want to get input on and edit it down to that (30-60 seconds - Using Windows Movie Maker) so people with slower connections have a chance to see it, too. You can upload the longer ones, too for those with high-speed.

I can't wait to see your dogs!  

I'm afraid I find it very difficult to interpret those two videos because you only see one dog in a close-up. You can't see what else is going on that may be causing the dog's reactions. And tip: the person running the video camera shouldn't be "part of" whatever is going on.

I'll post more later with dog to dog observations.

mudpuppy

And tip: the person running the video camera shouldn't be "part of" whatever is going on.

Why not?

corvus

The idea is to post photos, videos or descriptions of dog behaviour such as interactions with people or other dogs.

mudpuppy

I'm afraid I find it very difficult to interpret those two videos because you only see one dog in a close-up. You can't see what else is going on that may be causing the dog's reactions. And tip: the person running the video camera shouldn't be "part of" whatever is going on.

I think you will then like my videos, but if I have to do snippets of a long taping, you may not see the what was going before.  I will try and include as much as that as possible.  Some behaviors I understand but other really took me by surprise and I don't know what to make of it.

Chuffy

 

The pair remind me so much of my older dog and our young collie X!  Now, I don't think our young collieX was very well socialised as a puppy.  I think for a long time she didn't "get" that others don't really like being pushed or trampled, because no one has ever really told her so.  I didn't think it's OK for her to carry on with that delusion, because it was not fair on my older, tolerant, patient dog who put up with so much of her cr@p.  Looking at the video again, I think she might be looking at you hoping you will do something to stop Jill, but I think I'm letting my bias creep in here, sorry!

Well, Jill is not actually doing anything to her. She's not hurting her or intimidating her. She's ignoring her and she didn't even touch her. I didn't stop giving her affection and Jill didn't get close to walking on her, so I don't see that there's anything to stop Jill from doing in this clip. Jill doesn't get to stand on Penny when I'm beside her, or flail her tail about in her face, but I don't want to step in when it's just Jill's proximity that is upsetting Penny. Jill has a right to come and bring me the rope toy if I'm in the yard as long as she's mindful of Penny, and in this case she was. Penny will still grumble at her even if she's unusually careful not to get very close to her. I think it's interesting that everyone is sticking up for Penny. I sort of expected people to be commenting on her intolerance of Jill and the rope toy.

It's a bit hard to see what is going on from the clip as only Penny is visible   Not sure about others, but I am sticking up for her because I interpret her actions as uncomfortable, not intolerant.... but I could be wrong!! 

 I stick up for Penny, too. I do know that she has a history of getting growly at Jill when Jill is still 2 metres away tossing around the rope toy to herself, though. That's what I like about the idea of sharing videos with little information. I get to hear a completely objective interpretation without the influence of the history that I know. It's a real eye opener. Because I don't really like patting a dog that's all grouchy about another dog being within coo-ee distance when I'm trying to enjoy her company, I'm more inclined to get irritated with Penny than Jill. Even though I know Penny has cause to be grouchy and anxious about Jill, I'm like "Penny, I'm trying to love you here but you're too busy watching Jill 2 metres away so you can snarl at her if she so much as glances at us." If I walk away, Jill can come right up to Penny and dump the rope toy on her feet and the worst she'll do is shoot Jill a dirty look. She migh just step over it and walk away herself.

Next time I'm at home, I'll get someone else to film it and I'll see if tucking Penny between my feet and shielding her from Jill reduces the signs of anxiety.