60% Exercise, 30% Discipline, 10% Affection

Please show me a competition where the dog is heeling and doing nothing else for 20 minutes. 

glenmar

HOW is that different from what I said he said

I'm not the referee here. When someone speaks of their experience, that's all it is. They're not trying to force to you change how you treat your dogs. It's all about making the other one wrong and I just get sick of the petty scrapping. "He said this" ... "Well, she said this"... It's called difference of opinion. Different experiences, even. Different dogs. Go ahead and scrap if you want, but it you were FORCED to quote something before you argued with it, there'd be a lot less of that crap and a lot more discussion of what's important. In my opinion.

My opinion AND experience is that there are many dogs (like 2 of mine) who would be great with 2-20 minute walks a day. But Oh, No! We can't be saying that! There are other dogs (like 2 of mine) who would chew up my house if they didn't get 2 hours. So what do we do here? Who's right? You both are. Can you live with that?

glenmar

And frankly, some of the claims made on this forum are quite unbelievable.  Not just because of the source of the claims, and knowing what type of dog those folks own, but because IN MY EXPERIENCE, it doesn't work. 

Glenda, if a dog isn't used to exercise, but they have a mellow mentality and can play with another dog for 1/2 hour in the house, that is sometimes enough. I believe that in your experience with your dogs you haven't seen that. But there is more to a dog than his breed. Believe it or not (and we all know we can't believe everything we read), not all dogs need an hour fast running a day. Before Jaia came here and we built the fence, sometimes Cara and Mia got a 10 minute walk. But they had the yard and they played together and they were FINE. Believe me or not, but I'm not lying. I didn't know what exercise requirements were until I got Jaia. And would 2-20-minute walks work for him? I have no idea.

glenmar

Yet, when I say that in my experience it doesn't work, I'm told that *I* don't know how to do it...whatever IT might be.

I get frustrated with this too. And it's not about carrying the CM flag. I don't carry the clicker +R banner and I can't count how many times I've been told that I just don't know how to do it in so many words. My God! I've been told horrible things about my dogs, my relationship to them and how messed up I'm making them... By people who have never met me or my dogs and have no clue. You just have to laugh at it! Well, you don't have to, but that's what I do. Nobody here - and I mean NOBODY - is any more of an "expert" on my dogs than I am.

But yeah, it's gets old. I hear that. But it's not about which flag you carry, trust me.

mudpuppy

These "structured walks" where the dog is supposed to heel for twenty, thirty, sixty minutes- I don't see why anyone would put their dog through that.

Put their dog through what? Boredom? Ooohh!! How cruel! I'm sure their dogs are shut down, huh?

Even if the dog is bored... Is that some kind of torture? Do you make sure your dog isn't bored for a 20-minute span? Are you with him and entertaining him all day every day? Or is he in a crate for 8 hours where he might get... BORED?

mudpuppy

Feel free to practice short sessions of heeling, though, it's a very useful skill.

Why, thank you!  

I'm not the referee here.

So, then it isn't you who is always pressing the report button??

Nobody here - and I mean NOBODY - is any more of an "expert" on my dogs than I am.

Not even your most trusted veterinarian?  I find that argument usually comes from a controlling and defensive perspective, so I try not to adopt it for myself.  For example, I would not presume to know more about my dogs' structure than, say, Pat Hastings, an experienced evaluator of structure.  And, I would consider carefully the opinions of trainers and behaviorists with more experience than I have, if I were dealing with a training or behavior issue.  If I hit a plateau, I don't just assume that my solution is best - I talk to respected colleagues or I investigate.  Once you adopt a position that you automatically know more, you cut off your ability to learn.  I'm an expert on my dogs, too, but that doesn't mean that other people don't have anything to offer me in terms of even more enhanced knowledge about them. Also, there is some knowledge that is pretty irrefutable, scientifically speaking, that people often overlook because of the emotionally charged nature of being called to task on a public forum - but it is there nevertheless, and worthy of study.  I also do not assume that a non-scientific presentation of the claim made by our OP is valid - it probably isn't.

Put their dog through what? Boredom? Ooohh!! How cruel! I'm sure their dogs are shut down, huh?

now that you mention it, yeah. That seems to be the primary intent of the "structured walk": to systematically "shut down" the dog, so he goes home subdued and doesn't do much of anything for a period of time.

*content removed, personal and rude*

spiritdogs

So, then it isn't you who is always pressing the report button??

No. It's not. I like to handle my own discussions. I can, you know. If you're getting reported, then it's because of your posts, not me. By the time I see your red-inked posts, I'm always sorry I didn't get to see them before they were edited.

spiritdogs

Not even your most trusted veterinarian? 

Is he here? Kevin, are you a member here?  

spiritdogs

Pat Hastings

Is he here?  

mudpuppy

That seems to be the primary intent of the "structured walk"

Not everything is as it seems.

mudpuppy

*previously removed content*

*referencing previously deleted content*

I am interested in this question I asked you, though. I notice you never answer my point blank questions...

Do you make sure your dog isn't bored for a 20-minute span? Are you with him and entertaining him all day every day? Or is he in a crate for 8 hours where he might get... BORED?

Are you crating your dogs to subdue them? It seems like that's the intent of crating dogs.

(I'm just making a point - for those of you who crate your dogs. I don't have any such silly judgments about it)  

I don't crate at all?   been repeatedly attacked for claiming it's cruel to crate for long periods of time. 

Yep, can absolutely back mud up on that one. She has very strong opinions about crates.

Carla, I'm not asking you to referee.  I'm asking you what from the quote I posted is at all different from what I said was said?  I'm not misquoting anyone, nor am I putting words in their moths.

 Give it up Glenda.  Can't you see the thread just isn't worth it anymore???  It's like a flippin' creche in here!!

Who cares what who said and who said and whether someone said exactly what someone else said.... yikes!

Repeat after me:  it's just a forum, it's just a forum, it's just a forum.... 

FourIsCompany

spiritdogs

So, then it isn't you who is always pressing the report button??

 

No. It's not. I like to handle my own discussions. I can, you know. If you're getting reported, then it's because of your posts, not me. By the time I see your red-inked posts, I'm always sorry I didn't get to see them before they were edited.

spiritdogs

Not even your most trusted veterinarian? 

 

Is he here? Kevin, are you a member here?  

spiritdogs

Pat Hastings

 

Is he here?  

Gee, FIC, you don't have much of a sense of humor do you?  Did you not notice the smiley????  

And, just FYI, Pat Hastings is a she, and I have no idea if she posts here, but I doubt it.  She is a structure expert and AKC judge. 

Moderator speaking.

The snark and sneak attack quotient of this thread needs to be ratcheted down quite a bit, NOW. Thank you.

glenmar

nor am I putting words in their moths.

LOL Glenda, thank God I can always count on you for a good guffaw! Words in their moths! LOL Sorry, but I had 3 hours sleep last night and I find that funny! See, Anne, I have a fine sense of humor. It's just a bit quirky.

Hmmmmm, maybe I meant moths in their mouths?? 

glenmar

When Tyler and I do the MS Walk, we walk for SIX MILES on lead, and some of that time he does need to be in a strict heel because of the crowds of people.  At the end of that walk, his nails are nicely trimmed, but he is in no way tired out.  In fact we usually turn him loose in one of the empty baseball fields and play fetch for 30 minutes or so TO tire him out.  That six mile walk, even at heel and with tight attention to me, does NOTHING for his energy levels, physical or mental.

Instead of putting words in my mouth, you took them out of my mouth. BTW, thanks for washing your hands with minty soap. I was trying to make that point earlier with my dog. It doesn't matter how long we walk, He could still do zoomies and assorted boisterous play at various intervals, eat a meal and 45 minutes later, cue me for training. So, a LLW walk with the dog at the side or behind, as preached by CM, will not meet all the exercise needs of every dog though, granted, taking the dog for a walk should be a good thing. But the walk does not in and of itself solve behavior problems. Once again, I will point out the innumerable times CM is called because the dog is acting up during the walk. What is more important is training the behavior that is expected, regardless of the amount of walking. And that, for me, is achieved by rewarding the desired behavior. Then you have the attentiveness you need, whether you walk for 20 minutes or 6 hours. I just hope people don't lose sight of your example. A large breed dog walking for 6 miles in LLW or heel and then, at the end, going for zoomies in the ball field. I think dogs are going to always have more energy than you can spend. They sleep often enough to recharge quicker than a human.

So, I would say, regardless of style, the quality of the walk is more important than the quantity. You get what you reinforce.

For me, I think, sometimes discipline and affection get intermingled. If we are using the word discipline to mean guiding or instructing in the desired behaviors, there is reward and affection during our training.