60% Exercise, 30% Discipline, 10% Affection

So who here believs that a structured leash walk where the dogs are in perfect compliance of the rules still offers the dog "discipline" on top of limited exercise?

I think that if a dog is walking, even briskly, with a human, he is getting minimal exercise compared to many other activities that he could be doing instead.  I do not believe that a "structured leash walk" (which most people just call "heeling";) provides any more or less discipline than the performance of any other command the dog knows.  And, truth to tell, in my opinion, most dogs hate heeling.  I hate it, too, which is why I rarely do it with my dogs.  I much prefer to exercise them by throwing a frisbee or a tennis ball (they get way more tired that way than they do from just walking, structured or not.  Really gets the heart rate up.)  I think that it is humans who feel that the dog needs to be regimented to be disciplined.  Not so - he just has to be trained.  My dogs will heel, but they will also do all kinds of other behaviors on command - variety is the spice of life, so why just take them for a boring, unpleasant walk.  Run, jump, do obstacles, practice downs, stays, spins, or high fives - even occasional heeling.  That's what our "walks" are like.  Sometimes, I even go out ahead of time and "bait" the route with biscuits - we practice "leave it" as we get to them, and the dogs get something really cool for doing the perfect "leave it".  Fun for the dogs, and for me.

If the dog is in compliance, does the act of the reinforcement of the structure found on a leash walk still fall into the discipline category. That is to say, is the disciplined walk (or even a structured agility course) offer discipline through routine?

What's your dog's name, rank and serial number LOL???  You sound like a drill sergeant;-)    I prefer to call discipline "performance" - so much less unpleasant sounding.  Would you rather play for a coach who inspires you to perform well, or one who threatens you with a cold shower if you don't?  All activities that you do with the dog, during which you reward for certain behavior, will produce dogs that repeat that desired behavior.  If you want to call that discipline, so be it.  But, I find that the words we use to describe what we do also reflect our philosophy in general.  I'm more inclined to want an operant dog.

mudpuppy

espencer claims it all the time- he claims a 20-minute "structured walk" will tire out any dog. 

The misconceptions like to come around very often around here, can you quote me where i have said that in this thread or the entire forum?, now if you want me to i can really tell you what do i "claim all the time"

Structured walk is NOT the same as heeling, if you think it is then clearly have never done it before, and if you have never done it before then its weird that people are so sure is not exercise

Hi Spiritdogs, I thought that you said "I'll see ya on some of the other threads and bow out of this one - it does get boring after a while discussing the same things." back on page 2? Was the page count just getting to high to bow out after all? Jus jokin' with ya For discussion sake, I will assume you were speaking to me directly for the most part but you may also be speaking in generalities. If so, please correct me.

I like the new term, performance that you bring into the discussion here. I would like to ask others if they see a difference between performance and discipline. For me, at least, I tend to equate performance with something that the dog (or human) puts out whereas discipline is something that a dog (or human) receives or is imersed within. Perhaps performance is simply disciplined behavior? It is no surprise to find this word come up. After all, this country seems "hellbent" on performance.

I'll have to agree with you that "if a dog is walking, even briskly, with a human, he is getting minimal exercise compared to many other activities that he could be doing instead." But what if over the course of say, a week, a dog owner does other things in addition to a simple low paced or structured "heel" walk. Would that make going out on a structured walk OK then? I comlpletely agree with you that "variety is the spice of life." I've noted that lots of people in our neighborhood take their dogs out in the evening for walks around the block. And that's about all they do with their dogs. I'm not sure if that is boring to the dog or not but I would certainly get bored and frustrated...... and if it does not use up the dogs available energy, then the dog will likely act out elsewhere to expend that energy.

I am also curious to hear what you think about activities that in-and-of themselves are the reward. You stated "all activities that you do with the dog, during which you reward for certain behavior, will produce dogs that repeat that desired behavior." Does this mean that one must offer rewards to the dog during an exercise such as a 4 hour walk in the hills which are filled with fresh scents of nature? You stated that you have your dogs practice plenty of commands while walking and reward each one. Is it possible that the walk itself is the reward and that intermediate rewards are not really nessessary to have a really satisfied dog upon return from the trip? I know that my dogs like going out with me and really look quite content when we get back home. We just walk and they explore all of the smells that abound. Pretty rewarding I'd say.... and my dogs seem to behave just the way I like them to as well. Perhaps they have simply been conditioned by being exposed to walks with me which makes them such good companions that they are.

Let's see, I wanted to ask you if you know how I exercise my dogs but I may have partially answered that in my last paragraph. I ask this because you said "I find that the words we use to describe what we do also reflect our philosophy in general."

Therefore, I will ask you, based on the words you see over the last couple of days, what is my philosophy? Have you labeled me as a drill seargent? If so, how could you possibly know since what I have presented so far is so very very limited? Have you been exposed to family members serving in the military when you were just a kid growing up?

tssst

After all, this country seems "hellbent" on performance.

Which country? We have people from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Great Britain, China, Japan, countries in South America. We you talking about US of A? I've seen some neat schutzhund video from Germany, too.

I don't doubt that dogs can be rewarded by a simple walk. But I might disagree that looking at your hindquarters for a mile or two is the be-all, end-all for all dogs. I suppose, too, that what others are saying is that it is not so much the quantity, or percentage, real or imagined, that fullfills the dog, it is the quality. I think that is what Xerxes might have been referring to earlier. One of our other members has dogs competing in field trials. A normal day for them includes raw meals and trial training where they run out and are recalled. And calling hounds off the prey is work, for both human and hound. I don't think there's much heel walking in their day at all. And the reason heel walking comes up is that it's part of the structured walk espoused by CM. That the dog must be to the side or behind, not in front, for proper discipline. A number of us disagree with the notion that looking at your fanny automatically signals to the dog that you are in charge in a canine fashion.

Then there are dogs like mine, bred to pull hard and run fast, out in front, but I can have him walk in heel and doing so had nothing to do with me being calm-assertive, it had to do with motivating him to walk in that fashion because it was rewarding for him.

espencer

espencer

And you can get both with a good walk and the dog walking next to you, the simple dog having to learn auto-control is a physical-mental exercise. 

Thats why the walk can tire a dog out, the mental exercise of not to jump on anything that moves wears some of his energy. Also a treadmill its a good friend of the dog

Surely once your dog is trained on lead and LLW you aren't having to constantly remind her to not jump on anything that moves??  No wonder you feel that "the walk" is so tiring.  Are you talking about walking your dog on a strict heel during TRAINING or for her entire life?  I personally have put in the time and the work so it's not even remotely necessary for me to constantly remind my dogs not to jump on or at things.  That self control is already built in so in our case, that forced march would be completely unneeded and unkind.

I never really understood this separation.  If I'm walking with my dog and she's being extremely good, I will praise her for it.  If she's acting up, I will stop and verbally correct her. 

And, I agree with what Glenda wrote above.  Once she had all the basics down including NILIF there really wasn't much need for the constant militant attitute. 

Hi Spiritdogs, I thought that you said "I'll see ya on some of the other threads and bow out of this one - it does get boring after a while discussing the same things." back on page 2? Was the page count just getting to high to bow out after all? Jus jokin' with ya For discussion sake, I will assume you were speaking to me directly for the most part but you may also be speaking in generalities. If so, please correct me.

Just asserting a woman's prerogative to change her mind;-)

I like the new term, performance that you bring into the discussion here. I would like to ask others if they see a difference between performance and discipline. For me, at least, I tend to equate performance with something that the dog (or human) puts out whereas discipline is something that a dog (or human) receives or is imersed within. Perhaps performance is simply disciplined behavior? It is no surprise to find this word come up. After all, this country seems "hellbent" on performance.

You have a point about the dog "receiving" discipline.  I prefer to encourage reliable performance so that discipline becomes unnecessary - I have found that if you start right off rewarding the good and ignoring the bad (save the occasional NRM perhaps) that dogs generally don' t need a lot of physical correction, nor do they need to be treated like pack toting slaves.  BTW, anyone who puts a backpack on a dog without providing a thorough vet check is asking for trouble.  Example: my hound looks fit, and he's big, and he loves to trot along next to a bike, etc.  However, upon x-ray, he shows the beginnings of arthritis in both hips - he should NOT be carrying any backpacks.

I'll have to agree with you that "if a dog is walking, even briskly, with a human, he is getting minimal exercise compared to many other activities that he could be doing instead." But what if over the course of say, a week, a dog owner does other things in addition to a simple low paced or structured "heel" walk. Would that make going out on a structured walk OK then?

I certainly don't have any problem with people practicing a nice heel while they are outdoors.  The problem I have with this whole philosophy is that it tends to make people think that if they are NOT doing that, that somehow they are not leaders or their dog will not get the right exercise.  That's just pure unadulterated poppycock.  There are many ways to exercise dogs, and there are simple and humane techniques of leadership that have nothing whatsoever to do with structured walks or carrying backpacks or having the dog walk behind you, poking him, tapping him with your foot, or making tssst noises at him.

I comlpletely agree with you that "variety is the spice of life." I've noted that lots of people in our neighborhood take their dogs out in the evening for walks around the block. And that's about all they do with their dogs. I'm not sure if that is boring to the dog or not but I would certainly get bored and frustrated...... and if it does not use up the dogs available energy, then the dog will likely act out elsewhere to expend that energy.

Some dogs do not get bored from this, and you have no way of knowing that these owners aren't tiring the dog indoors with training games, or some other activity.  I have a high energy Aussie - we rarely take walks, but she sure does get exercised chasing down that frisbee every day - which she loves.  And, she is not frustrated, destructive or acting out.

I am also curious to hear what you think about activities that in-and-of themselves are the reward. You stated "all activities that you do with the dog, during which you reward for certain behavior, will produce dogs that repeat that desired behavior." Does this mean that one must offer rewards to the dog during an exercise such as a 4 hour walk in the hills which are filled with fresh scents of nature?

No, it doesn't - some activities are self-rewarding.  But, mostly, they aren't the same activities that the human finds rewarding (a la sniffing a dead mouse).  However, during a four hour walk in the hills, if you wanted to practice a nice sit/stay while you shot a photo of the landscape, perhaps your dog would appreciate a reward.  Why is it that so many people are so opposed to rewarding dogs?  Should the focus always be on stopping bad behavior, rather than on rewarding the good?

You stated that you have your dogs practice plenty of commands while walking and reward each one.

No, I do not reward each one - unless it is a new behavior.  Those behaviors in which the dog is already fluent are rewarded on a schedule of variable reinforcement.   Again, if you aren't bribing, but are operating according to the principles of operant conditioning, there's no harm in reward.

Is it possible that the walk itself is the reward and that intermediate rewards are not really nessessary to have a really satisfied dog upon return from the trip? I know that my dogs like going out with me and really look quite content when we get back home. We just walk and they explore all of the smells that abound.

Yup, but most of the time here, when people refer to "the walk" or "the structured walk" they are not talking about letting dogs really sniff what they would like to sniff.  If your dogs are fine with it, great.  But, it is not necessary to do what you do to have a calm, well behaved dog.

Pretty rewarding I'd say.... and my dogs seem to behave just the way I like them to as well. Perhaps they have simply been conditioned by being exposed to walks with me which makes them such good companions that they are.

Let's see, I wanted to ask you if you know how I exercise my dogs but I may have partially answered that in my last paragraph. I ask this because you said "I find that the words we use to describe what we do also reflect our philosophy in general."

I'm guessing that if you call yourself tssst that you ascribe to CM type techniques.  Sorry if you didn't mean to suggest that.  He would say "discipline" and he's also fine with choke chains, poking, and the like.  I would say "performance" or other words, and I'm not fine with it.  And, frankly, I'm not fine with the walk either, if it involves putting backpacks on dogs without having them medically evaluated for soundness to carry the pack.

Therefore, I will ask you, based on the words you see over the last couple of days, what is my philosophy? Have you labeled me as a drill seargent? If so, how could you possibly know since what I have presented so far is so very very limited? Have you been exposed to family members serving in the military when you were just a kid growing up?

My cousin was a gunner in the Army.  My ex-DH was in Search and Rescue in the military.

What you have presented thus far has been discussed ad nauseum on the forum already, and seems to me to be just a regurgitation of the CM philosophy.  If you have some original ideas, I would love to hear them.  BTW, you seem to be adding ssss's to the tssst.

glenmar

Surely once your dog is trained on lead and LLW you aren't having to constantly remind her to not jump on anything that moves??

No, the dog does that. He exercises self-control, as has been said so many times. That's the part about wearing some of his own energy. You accuse people of putting words in your mouth...

I can't believe you're still arguing about this. No one has said that a 20 minute walk is all the dog needs, yet you continue to pick on espencer as if that's what he's advocating. He's just saying it provides SOME exercise, mental and physical, not that it's ALL the dog needs (although with some dogs it may be).

We have asked mudpuppy to provide proof of where espencer said something and she has not... Can you?

glenmar

in our case, that forced march would be completely unneeded and unkind.

Then don't do it.  

mudpuppy

All the dog has to do to stay in heel position (not talking about competition quality heel) is keep his shoulder next to your leg. Not too demanding.

I find it interesting that a competition quality heel is acceptable but a regular heel position is somehow cruel and unkind! LOL Talk about a forced march! But that's ok because it's ... what? For performance? All this talk about how cruel it is for people to have their dogs walk in a heel position or on a "structured walk" and then look at all the machinations you put your dogs through to do all the "performance" stuff so you can have trophies and ribbons that the dogs would as soon chew up than see stacked up on the mantle... I just don't get it!

Why is it OK to let your dog wander around on the leash OR have him at a military competition heel, but NOT somewhere in between???  That's just whacked! LOL

No, the dog does that. He exercises self-control, as has been said so many times. That's the part about wearing some of his own energy. You accuse people of putting words in your mouth...

Sorry, I'm not "getting it".  If the dog does these things on his/her own, why does the dog have to be at a heel for the entire walk?  Mine LLW very nicely without thinking its ok to chase after something or jump on everything.  Perhaps I'm not understanding what espencer is trying to say, but it sure sounds to ME like his dog has to walk "the walk" each and every walk.  And he HAS said that 2 20 minute walks per day are all that are required to tire the dog.  I'm not sure if that's with or without the shoelace.

I think the point about the competition heel was not to say it is better, but simply to say that it DOES provide more mental fatigue.  Since I don't show, I can't say for sure.  I will however say that some dogs really get off on being shown.  They are UP for the show like an athlete is up for a game.  And it shows in their attitude, in their posture and in every fiber of their being.

My dogs don't "wander around" on leash.  But they do have a bit more freedom than I have seen described here.  Nor do they march along at a heel UNLESS I ask for one periodically, just as a brief refresher.  We have some basic rules when walking on lead in town.  We stay on the sidewalk, the only grass they are allowed on is the outlawn...that area between the sidewalk and the street....if someone leaves a potty, they are required to sit and wait for me to bag it up.  My dogs sit when we come to a crossing without reminder.  They can certainly WATCH the squirrel or the cat, but they can not chase it, or even start as if they are going after it.  There will be NO pulling at all at any time because Mom has glass shoulders and doesn't want any more surgeries.  They are also not allowed to bark and go nutty when they see other dogs, on or off lead.  Their default is to come and sit beside me when another dog approaches.  I've accomplished all of this without "the walk" and I have no training background, so why is "the walk" so highly touted?  It makes no sense to me.  And, sorry, but in my opinion, it does nothing but impose the humans will on the dog in a manner that is NOT meeting the needs of the animal.

Here you go.  This is from the leash training thread:

go read the leash training thread on the training section and you will see many claims by espencer about how one can tire out any dog by doing this mysterious "structured walk" , (which apparently is now not the same thing as walking your dog at heel) for 20 minutes. He has scattered claims about this all over the forum, but I'm not about to waste time tracking them down.

here, I'll quote him so you don't even to go look for it:

glenmar:

Walking dogs on lead is just flat not going to give them any exercise

 

 

As one of the person with real experience on the walking next to you technique let me tell you that is actually the opposite, i have walked HIGH ENERGY dogs and after only 2 sessions of 20 minutes walks they just want to rest the rest of the day, so your statement of "not providing exercise" is highly inaccurate specially if you dont have personal experience at all with the method, i suggest you to try it for a week and then we can compare experiences, does that sound fair?

LOL mudpuppy!  Two brilliant minds with but a single thought!

ETA:  espencer later qualified that you MUST use a backpack and then  later further qualified that it has to be an apparently HEAVY backpack to achieve the goal.

So, glenmar, you say that walking a dog on a lead isn't going to give him ANY exercise.

And espencer says he has experience of walking dogs for 40 minutes that DID give them exercise.

So... mudpuppy turns that into:

mudpuppy

espencer claims it all the time- he claims a 20-minute "structured walk" will tire out any dog.

Which is totally not what he said... Okay. Thanks.

If people were actually arguing about what others actually said, I would find it interesting. But this habit of putting words in others' mouths and then arguing with it... Well, it seems kinda like you're arguing with your own words... Just because you put them in someone else's mouth doesn't mean they said them. That's a REALLY foul debating "technique".  Not to mention leaves me with the feeling that I'm on a playground.

If you would QUOTE what other people said, THEN you'd be arguing with their words, not your own.  

THIS is what he said:

As one of the person with real experience on the walking next to you technique let me tell you that is actually the opposite, i have walked HIGH ENERGY dogs and after only 2 sessions of 20 minutes walks they just want to rest the rest of the day, so your statement of "not providing exercise" is highly inaccurate specially if you dont have personal experience at all with the method, i suggest you to try it for a week and then we can compare experiences, does that sound fair?

HOW is that different from what I said he said, or what mud said he said, other than that she left out the TWO 20 minute walks since again, he qualified that it must be TWO 20 minute walks, not one 40 minute walk.  And I'm not going to go back and copy every post he made to prove that.

And, no, I still maintain that walking a dog on lead is not going to give him any significant exercise.

When Tyler and I do the MS Walk, we walk for SIX MILES on lead, and some of that time he does need to be in a strict heel because of the crowds of people.  At the end of that walk, his nails are nicely trimmed, but he is in no way tired out.  In fact we usually turn him loose in one of the empty baseball fields and play fetch for 30 minutes or so TO tire him out.  That six mile walk, even at heel and with tight attention to me, does NOTHING for his energy levels, physical or mental.

And frankly, some of the claims made on this forum are quite unbelievable.  Not just because of the source of the claims, and knowing what type of dog those folks own, but because IN MY EXPERIENCE, it doesn't work.  Yet, when I say that in my experience it doesn't work, I'm told that *I* don't know how to do it...whatever IT might be.  It seems that in the opinion of some posters, if I refuse to fly the CM flag, I can't know anything about anything, and sorry, but that gets very old.

I find it interesting that a competition quality heel is acceptable but a regular heel position is somehow cruel and unkind! LOL Talk about a forced march! But that's ok because it's ... what? For performance? All this talk about how cruel it is for people to have their dogs walk in a heel position or on a "structured walk" and then look at all the machinations you put your dogs through to do all the "performance" stuff so you can have trophies and ribbons that the dogs would as soon chew up than see stacked up on the mantle... I just don't get it!

Why is it OK to let your dog wander around on the leash OR have him at a military competition heel, but NOT somewhere in between???  That's just whacked! LOL

No, a competition heel is not acceptable either- it is indeed cruel and unkind to have a dog heel, whether in "regular" or "competition style" for long periods of time. "head up competiton heeling" is very physically demanding, and can actually damage your dog's neck; "regular" heeling is mostly just deadly boring for dogs. Most people who know what they are doing practice heelwork for a couple of minutes at a time, and then take a break. These "structured walks" where the dog is supposed to heel for twenty, thirty, sixty minutes- I don't see why anyone would put their dog through that. Feel free to practice short sessions of heeling, though, it's a very useful skill.