60% Exercise, 30% Discipline, 10% Affection

FourIsCompany

The only thing about exercise, discipline and affection that is "CM-ish" is that they are repeated in that order until it's become a part of his "jargon". These are very valid and necessary concepts to dogs, don't you agree?

The only order I see is that they are in descending alphabetical order.  I don't equate the order with CM. 

ron2

Okay, so I will say the emperor has no clothes on. Obviously, the login is a reference to CM's signature sound. And he's going to relate to us "experts" CM-ish stuff. And it's probably going to sound cool and "science-y" until you actually apply science to it. And this person may have been invited in to "even the odds" against the evil deception of clicker training. Maybe I should change my login to Click.

You have such a suspicious mind.......

"I am trying to understand and I am no where near to a good understanding the role of affection in the dog-human relationship. I do know that humans are bias in this area and lack an understanding from the dog's perspective."

I tend to think that when a dog will nuzzle in for a scratch, that it is the form of social bonding which acts as a reinforcer that everything's OK and that they need that reciprocation (just briefly) to affim the bond. The nuzzle might also be used by the dog when the dog does not feel secure and comes up to the owner for reasons of safety but this is just pure speculation, as no human can enter into a dog's mind and know for sure.

I do tend to think that humans think that dogs need much more affection than dogs really need and sometimes, this stems from a something deeper or even an unfullfilled part of the humans life. I think that if a dog gets smothered with affection all the time with little or no exercie, a dog might become possessive and frustrated but if exercise needs are fullfilled, the possessive and protective nature will still be present as it is an indication of bond strength but the level of any frustration or neurotic behavior goes away for the most part.

I think of discipline as the rules, boundaries and limitations that the dogs operate under every day, whether it be wearing a leash outside the property or waiting before exiting the gate.

I would agree with this. A structured leash walk includes exercise (tho diminished because of the slow pace) as well as dicipline reinforcement. Just because the dog is in compliance and that no corrections or rewards are needed (or offered) does not mean that discipline is not being engaged. When we ask our dogs to lay down while we watch a movie, that is disciplined behavior. The same for sitting down before exiting the gate as you have indicated. Discipline doesn't just mean the time involved in training a dog to do new things but in my opinion, it's all about learning new things as well as maintaining compliance with the old things containied with the set of rules, boundaries, and limitations.

DPU

The only order I see is that they are in descending alphabetical order.  I don't equate the order with CM. 

Okay. But he does say them in that order. Always. He never says, "Your dogs need affection, exercise and discipline" In fact, the "mantra" is

"Exercise, discipline and affection, in that order."...

Now, I believe he gets up and exercises his dogs first thing every day and then provides discipline and affection, meaning that he does them in chronological order. But I don't do that and I don't agree with him that it's necessary to do them IN THAT ORDER. I believe that all 3 are needs that no dog should do without, and the most important one is exercise, the next important one is discipline and the least important (of these things that are all required) is affection. In other words, affection is necessary, it's just not as important as exercise. That's what I believe.

FourIsCompany

Now, I believe he gets up and exercises his dogs first thing every day and then provides discipline and affection, meaning that he does them in chronological order. But I don't do that and I don't agree with him that it's necessary to do them IN THAT ORDER. I believe that all 3 are needs that no dog should do without, and the most important one is exercise, the next important one is discipline and the least important (of these things that are all required) is affection. In other words, affection is necessary, it's just not as important as exercise. That's what I believe.

Its hard for me to believe that when anyone gets up in the morning they dont' greet their dog and possibly say "good morning", because I do.  I believe affection is always present and discipline takes place within the exercise need.   Yes, they are all needs but they overlap and are interrelated and dependent at the same time.

You know, I don't think dogs actually REQUIRE affection as a basic need. I give dogs affection because it's a need of mine. I don't think it's possible to give a dog too much affection, or too little affection. Definitely possible to give too little exercise (the amount required depends on each dog, of course) and too little "discipline" (training).

mudpuppy

I don't think dogs actually REQUIRE affection as a basic need.

No, not as a basic need of survival (although I'm not completely sure about that) but what I mean is that affection is needed to have a well-balanced, happy, healthy dog.

After all, a dog won't die without exercise or discipline either. But they sure will become unstable.  

mudpuppy

You know, I don't think dogs actually REQUIRE affection as a basic need. I give dogs affection because it's a need of mine. I don't think it's possible to give a dog too much affection, or too little affection. Definitely possible to give too little exercise (the amount required depends on each dog, of course) and too little "discipline" (training).

awh..  try telling that to my 3 laps dogs.   Yup even my big boy will climb into my lap if I sit on the floor.  I beleive they all require affection to some degree - they are domesticated lets not forget.

FourIsCompany

I don't think of discipline as equating to punishment or correction (although punishment and correction may be included in discipline). I think of discipline as the rules, boundaries and limitations that the dogs operate under every day, whether it be wearing a leash outside the property or waiting before exiting the gate. I kind of associate it with NILIF.

I don't think of discipline as equating to punishment either, or corrections, or aversives. I like to think of it as providing structure and rules that guides how the dogs are to live in our environment, and NILIF is very much a part of that. You must sit or down calmly until released to eat meals, and before we'll throw the ball. You must sit at the door and make eye contact before we go outside, etc. The only consequence to non-compliance is that the stuff the dogs want and value are not provided, or are delayed until compliance. Since they've been raised with that kind of discipline from a very young age, they tend to be quite compliant most of the time because the rules are clear and they understand them. They do have a choice though, and there is usually no actual punishment for the wrong choice, just no good stuff either.
 

tssst

I do tend to think that humans think that dogs need much more affection than dogs really need and sometimes, this stems from a something deeper or even an unfullfilled part of the humans life. I think that if a dog gets smothered with affection all the time with little or no exercie, a dog might become possessive and frustrated but if exercise needs are fullfilled, the possessive and protective nature will still be present as it is an indication of bond strength but the level of any frustration or neurotic behavior goes away for the most part.

How do you know how much affection a dog needs? 

 And I have ALWAYS hated it when a person passes a judgement about a dog-owner using a dog as a substitute since they have an "unfullfilled" life.  It is like saying that people who want a calm-submissive dog are making up for a perceived lack of control in the rest of their life.

 Another point, you claim that a dog might become "possessive and frustrated" if given too much affection but not enough exercise, and that exercise can cure the "frustrated" part, but not the "possessive" part of the dog.  I assume that you consider both the frustration and the possessive tendancy to be negative aspects, is that correct?  From that, it sounds like you are blaming the excess of affection and the strong human/dog bond with causing the possessiveness in the dog.  Is that so?

glenmar

Discipline?  I don't know about that so much.  In our day to day lives, discipline isn't much of a factor in our home.  I don't consider a "leave it" or enh eh to be discipline so much as sharing information, telling them "that's not acceptable"  When I was trying to teach Tyler to catch the ball in the air, he got plenty of "good try", and "almost" information and when he DID catch the ball, a jackpot of praise.  Not catching the ball wasn't a negative to him, because heck, it's just as much fun to go running after it as it is to catch it, but catching it meant a ton of praise, and he likes to be praised.  So for Tyler, it was six of one, half dozen of the other.  A win-win situation no matter how he looked at it.  I guess I don't even consider the "leave it" to be a correction.......just information.

As for affection?  That's given freely all day every day.  My dogs don't have to earn my affection.  We can be sitting in the living room or out on the trails in the woods.....if someone comes to me for affection, they get it.  I certainly can't and won't try to quantify the percentage.

Presenting percentages honestly makes dog owning sound like a ton of work and not much pleasure, rather than the joyous experience that it actually is.  Sure there is some hard work in training, but it doesn't have to be drudgery.  No reason it can't be fun for everyone involved.  And still come out with well behaved and obedient dogs.  I live with 6 full times gsds and frequent fosters.  I think I'd go nuts trying to insure that everyone got their daily allotment of exercise, discipline and affection!  Having a dog is supposed to be fun.

Glenmar,

I agree with you 100%

glenmar

Discipline?  I don't know about that so much.  In our day to day lives, discipline isn't much of a factor in our home.  I don't consider a "leave it" or enh eh to be discipline so much as sharing information, telling them "that's not acceptable" 

So you discipline your dogs but thats not discipline, well then i do leash pops that is not discipline either, i'm also (just like you) sharing information only, therefore my dog, or the dog i'm with gets 0% discipline; verbal corrections, body blocks and leash corrections are only sharing information, telling them "thats not acceptable" but is not discipline whatsoever

glenmar

I live with 6 full times gsds and frequent fosters.  I think I'd go nuts trying to insure that everyone got their daily allotment of exercise, discipline and affection!

6 GSDs, frequent fosters, no discipline and no daily allotment of exercise, thats sounds about right, like a good recipe for a very well behaved pack

Hi Golden,

I am just making a quick stop and go here. I saw you ask this:

"How do you know how much affection a dog needs? "

I don't know. I never stated that I did.

I did state that I think... which means it's just a feeling.... and feelings are wrong lots of times, aren't they?

For example, when you stated this:

"And I have ALWAYS hated it when a person passes a judgement about a dog-owner using a dog as a substitute since they have an "unfullfilled" life. It is like saying that people who want a calm-submissive dog are making up for a perceived lack of control in the rest of their life.

I did not say this at all. I said that it might, not that it is

Here is what I said exactly:

" I do tend to think that humans think that dogs need much more affection than dogs really need and sometimes, this stems from a something deeper or even an unfullfilled part of the humans life."

There's that word, sometimes.

 I admit that I've only looked at a small portion of this thread, but I still have to say I agree that the whole idea of discrete amounts of affection, discipline, and exercise is rather contrived.  In my dogs' world it's all squished together with no regard to the amount or order, but yet somehow it works (and one of my dogs is definitely not a dog that can do well if things are completely "off";). :)  Every walk has aspects of affection, discipline, and exercise, as does each training session, and even sitting on the couch includes discipline in addition to affection (dogs must get off or move if asked, depending on the location they may also be required to "ask" permission to join me or respect my space when I eat a snack).  I can't imagine trying to split everything out into discrete amounts!

I think in the end a lot of this discussion can just come down to a difference in semantics.  To me affection = any verbal or physical interaction that the dog finds pleasant, including praise or petting for a job well done, discipline = rules, boundaries, guidelines my dogs follow throughout the day, including instructions on walks and during training time, and exercise = any activity that gets them moving, mentally or physically.  Who knows how that would coincide with anyone else's definitions and that's part of the problem.  How can we have an effective discussion if the terms are always up to individual interpretation?!