60% Exercise, 30% Discipline, 10% Affection

Hi again DPU.

I know that when I take my dogs out on the trails around here, that they are exceedingly happy and when we all get back home, you can see it on their faces. Unable to know how a dog views affection other than an "It just feels good and I want more", I would venture to say that any activity that brings a dog joy could fall into this category. hard to say, but yes, an interesting avenue of thought perhaps

However, from a human point of view, affection is probably much more narrowly defined.

tssst

"Exercise and discipline and affection can all be achieved in less than a second."

This is true. But let's give a dog this one second every day over a one year period and totally ignore the dog for the other 23 hrs, 59 mins, and 59 secs fort each day. How would the dog turn out?

Once again, I'm not speaking about quantitative time here - but would that 1 second of time (and let's say that it was an exceptional one second qualitatively speaking) be enough quality to last even a day?

First let me thank you for taking my sentence out of context.  

 Secondly, actually you are speaking percentages of needs so you did quantify the subject matter.

Third, my point is that all three of your parameters can be met simultaneously, in an instant, and probably are by everyone that posts on the forum.  I neither said nor insinuated that that one second was enough for an entire day. 

If the point of your original post is that exercise is important to the overall health of the dog, I don't think you'd find anyone that disagrees.  Most of us, have though, at times had a dog for which exercise isn't of primary importance at a particular part of their lives. 

I have a dog that could arguably use 80% exercise, 10%boundaries/discipline and 10% affection.  He'd rather chase a deer for 8 hours than have his belly scratched.  As far as discipline or boundaries go, if an owner decides from the beginning what is allowed and what isn't allowed, then once that's ingrained into the dog, discipline isn't really necessary other than the occasional reminder.

Are there large numbers of dogs out there that develop behavioral problems due to lack of exercise?  Sure.  As anyone that has dealt with rescues, taught basic obedience, or had to make housecalls to teach owners how to deal with their dogs.  (All 3 apply to a large majority on this particular forum.) 
 

Tsst, please keep in mind that the vast majority of regular posters to this forum are not dog novices. I consider myself to be on the "less experience" end of the spectrum for this forum and in the past 6 years I've given a home to three large breed adolescent (at the time) rescues, one with some fairly major issues, another currently trained to CGC level now working on competing in agility, and volunteered my time at a large urban animal shelter. And I am a rank amateur compared to many many of the other posters in this thread and on this forum. So, dogs needing exercise, not news to anyone here. Same goes for dogs needing training.

It's always a good idea, before posting in a new forum, to introduce oneself, and hang around without saying much for a bit, to get a feel for the place and get to know the other members. It always kind of takes me aback when people come here guns-ablazin' lecturing us all on things we already know, as if we're all novices.

It depends on the dog. A Shih Tzu isn't going to last for ten miles. A Sibe can run, not just walk, but run at 30 mph for hours. A team of Sibes can pull 300 pounds at 20 mph for 2 hours or more in - 40 F and a blizzard. A walk in the heel position for a mile or 6 doesn't address their "exercise" needs. Actually doing a job will exhaust the dog more fully than just walking behind a human at an old man's pace. Unless that is the job. I don't think there's a magical number of how many miles or how often to walk. And it changes with age, too.

It's always a good idea, before posting in a new forum, to introduce oneself, and hang around without saying much for a bit, to get a feel for the place and get to know the other members. It always kind of takes me aback when people come here guns-ablazin' lecturing us all on things we already know, as if we're all novices.

Heh heh, thanks and at the time of this posting, this website has indicated to me that there are 273 lurkers looking and 23 registered members doing whatever thay might be doing. So it might just be possible that some of those lurkers might be less experienced then you regular folks but still find something useful within what has already been posted on this topic.

Did you have any thoughts about the idea that DPU and myself touched upon about the way dogs "might" view affection as compared to exercise? I thought it was a worthy tangential idea to explore with all the "experts here.

I would hesitate to say that anything that brings a dog joy is seen by the dog as affection. My dog has fun going camping with us and dances around wuffing with joy everytime we step out of the tent, but I think it's a different emotion than when she snuggles up against my leg when we're just sitting around, looking for scritches and belly rubs.

I would say, though, that I have known ACDs- which are typically known as a very high energy breed due to their purpose being running around the scrub after cattle all day -  being perfectly happy and balanced with just a stroll around the block everyday. As long as they spend the rest of the day hanging out with their chosen person, going everywhere they go, they're happy with that little exercise.  You can't do that with all breeds and get a healthy dog, but you can do it with some breeds, expecially working breeds that typically are high energy. In fact, I've known Kelpies - which are by far the highest energy dog I've ever come across - reasonably happy with no walks and just a paddock to run around in whenever they felt like it. They didn't run around much, but the family was always around and they were happy hanging around the house waiting for someone to come out and interact.

I am a 46 yr old woman, who works her BC's everyday--but I will have to say that my three BC boys understand what's going on in the house!!  I've been sick and we have had construction going on in our kitchen---they understand the shorter walks and Frisbee times when our schedule does not give them 60% exercise......

What I have found it depends on  Dog.  My boys understand our household and routine....with that said, DH and I also understand what they need--we know our dogs......

tssst

Did you have any thoughts about the idea that DPU and myself touched upon about the way dogs "might" view affection as compared to exercise? I thought it was a worthy tangential idea to explore with all the "experts here.

My dogs do not differentiate.  Exercise and training involve giving as much affection as sitting on the couch with a head in my lap.  My dogs do not exercise or train themselves and I use methods tailored to the dog and the behavior, whichever methods will engage the dog in a positive way and help develop our bond and communication.  I do not view affection as something outside of other activities.  Everything I do with regard to my dogs involves affection because I love them.

I don't think there is a magic number for any of the categories and I believe they are different for every dog. Hektor has to have exercise, and a lot of it. Challenging his mind and body at the same time tends to tire him out more than just going for a run. His behaviour suffers if he lacks this stimulation and he becomes more stubborn and bull headed with training if he is not exercised. Gunnar is not like this and although he loves exercise he obeys and learns well even when it is not provided.

 So although I do think exercise is important, it is not as crucial for all dogs. It depends on the breed, the age and the personality of the dog. There are dog couch potatoes that are very content being couch potatoes and there are dogs that will eat the couch if you try and make them be couch potatotes.

The two 8 months old that I'm working with right now not only require far less exercise, they can't handle the amount of exercise that my guys get.  Because of their backgrounds they are not used to getting any exercise at all and they get worn out pretty easily.  These are german shepherds, but they just flat haven't had the opportunity to get good exercise so now a little is enough.  When we go into town for leash walks, I walk one at a time, then we have a little treat session, me sitting on a cold park bench, and them sitting for desired treats, partly to reinforce the sit, but more to give who ever got walked second a little break to rest before we talk a walk all three of us.  By the time we get home they want nothing more than a good nap.

Right now, because of the fosters, I'm breaking my crew up into two groups for their romp in the woods and taking Theo and Tyler out with these two boys.  Theo is a bit slower to explore, while Tyler is very confident and pushes the limits a bit more.  Since I want these guys to be somewhere in between, this is a good combination for us.  The two fosters can't stay out anywhere near as long as my guys can.  They start lagging after about 30 minutes, so I make sure that before that happens, we are heading back home.  Theo is also content with the shorter walk, so I talk Tyler out alone for either more walking or a good game of fetch in the yard after he's done "training the fosters"  Our typical romp in the woods is at least an hour.

So, different dogs, different needs.  Theo is the least drivey of my crew and is perfectly happy with less exercise.  The two fosters haven't had the chance to build physical stamina because of their backgrounds so can't handle nearly as much as my guys can.  And there are days when my dogs don't get any real exercise.  Last week we had several really warm days and a lot of thawing.  Then it got cold so we had sheets of ice everywhere.  Walking in the woods flat out wasn't safe, so we missed a day.  Even a game of fetch in the yard wasn't safe since it was so darned icy that everyone was falling just going out to potty, so that was out too.  But, all exercise doesn't have to be physical.  Since we couldn't go out we played "duck duck goose" with the dogs sitting in a circle around me, and coming to me for a treat when called.  And no one could get up until they were called.  Even my fosters did well with this, and despite not being an hour or so running and romping free in the woods, everyone was tired out from the game.

I sometimes think that people put too much emphasis on physical exercise and forget about the mental challenge.

Discipline?  I don't know about that so much.  In our day to day lives, discipline isn't much of a factor in our home.  I don't consider a "leave it" or enh eh to be discipline so much as sharing information, telling them "that's not acceptable"  When I was trying to teach Tyler to catch the ball in the air, he got plenty of "good try", and "almost" information and when he DID catch the ball, a jackpot of praise.  Not catching the ball wasn't a negative to him, because heck, it's just as much fun to go running after it as it is to catch it, but catching it meant a ton of praise, and he likes to be praised.  So for Tyler, it was six of one, half dozen of the other.  A win-win situation no matter how he looked at it.  I guess I don't even consider the "leave it" to be a correction.......just information.

As for affection?  That's given freely all day every day.  My dogs don't have to earn my affection.  We can be sitting in the living room or out on the trails in the woods.....if someone comes to me for affection, they get it.  I certainly can't and won't try to quantify the percentage.

Presenting percentages honestly makes dog owning sound like a ton of work and not much pleasure, rather than the joyous experience that it actually is.  Sure there is some hard work in training, but it doesn't have to be drudgery.  No reason it can't be fun for everyone involved.  And still come out with well behaved and obedient dogs.  I live with 6 full times gsds and frequent fosters.  I think I'd go nuts trying to insure that everyone got their daily allotment of exercise, discipline and affection!  Having a dog is supposed to be fun.

Xerxes

I have a dog that could arguably use 80% exercise, 10%boundaries/discipline and 10% affection.  He'd rather chase a deer for 8 hours than have his belly scratched.  As far as discipline or boundaries go, if an owner decides from the beginning what is allowed and what isn't allowed, then once that's ingrained into the dog, discipline isn't really necessary other than the occasional reminder.

I agree with your last statement and don't agree with Carla that when a dog stays within the learned discipline structure that counts in the ratio,only the reinforcement time should count..

I don't think that "chase a deer" and "belly scratch" compete with each other.  Both are needs that have to be fulfilled.  The "chase a deer" satisfies the dog's breed instinct and depending on the dog that need may have to be satisfied quite often.  A "belly scratch" is the juice that confirms or strengthens the bond.  Just because a dog expresses they don't need a lot of juice doesn't make it a lesser need or a devalued motivator .  The food that is handed to the dog is more highly valued than food laying on the floor.  The same with a toy. 

To the OP, Tssst,  you kind of indicated that the ratios relate to the dog's timeframe and calendar and certainly the dog will contribute to the ratio on its own.  But, wouldn't the ratio be totally different if the ratio pertain to the human's timeframe and calendar in accomplishing the dog's ratios?  For example, opening the backdoor requires very little time on the human side that allows to fulfill the dog's exercise requirement.  I can't help but feel that when ratios are presented it requires the same ratios from humans.

I am trying to understand and I am no where near to a good understanding the role of affection in the dog-human relationship.  I do know that humans are bias in this area and lack an understanding from the dog's perspective.  I am just exploring affection and its natural role and its effect on a dog behavior and its use in training.  As far as I can see, praise, which is a reward for accomplishing something, and encouragement, which is the reward for failure, are the closest to pure positive training as one can get.

So, please excuse me if you don't understand where I am going with this post.

DPU

don't agree with Carla that when a dog stays within the learned discipline structure that counts in the ratio

I never thought of it that way. Interesting. I don't think of discipline as equating to punishment or correction (although punishment and correction may be included in discipline). I think of discipline as the rules, boundaries and limitations that the dogs operate under every day, whether it be wearing a leash outside the property or waiting before exiting the gate. I kind of associate it with NILIF. And of course, I do use punishment sometimes, so that's ALSO included in discipline, but it's a small percentage.

Any thoughts on that OP? 

FourIsCompany

discipline (in this context) is just rules, boundaries and limitations. Not punishment. Peeing outside is discipline. A walk every day is discipline. Mealtime at a certain hour is discipline.

Here is where I got that from.  Learned behavior being part of the discipline.  I see now you meant it is the time to learn the behavior.

Okay, so I will say the emperor has no clothes on. Obviously, the login is a reference to CM's signature sound. And he's going to relate to us "experts" CM-ish stuff. And it's probably going to sound cool and "science-y" until you actually apply science to it. And this person may have been invited in to "even the odds" against the evil deception of clicker training. Maybe I should change my login to Click.

I think we all know the emperor's nekked.  If we don't, we're blind. That doesn't mean that the subject isn't interesting or worth discussion. I actually think you might be misreading or misinterpreting the OP. I don't think she is trying to sound science-y. I got the impression it was more - laying some opinions out there and saying, "Whaddya all think"?

The only thing about exercise, discipline and affection that is "CM-ish" is that they are repeated in that order until it's become a part of his "jargon". These are very valid and necessary concepts to dogs, don't you agree?

ron2

And this person may have been invited in to "even the odds"

OMG, ron! LOL I can't speak for anyone else, but the odds feel pretty even here to me. This is the most balanced dog board on the internet (THANK YOU, STAFF!!!) There's no need to bring in more troops. This is not a war.