What an Animal Behaviorist Looks Like on Paper

snownose

Do they have to take tests to prove that they are on top of their game.......I think not.....that has been one of the political issues here in our state.......

We have a little test down here in Florida called the FCAT where the students are tested on how much they learn from the teacher.  Teachers unions are dead set against it and are trying to get rid of it.  I guess that the teachers don't want to be measured on how much the student actually learns from the teachers with all the certificates and advanced education.

Personally, I'm in favor of both education and experience. Some folks start with personal experience and continue their education simply because they can't help it. Education also involves more than one specific field of study of animals in general and/or behaviorism in general. An animal "behaviorist" is not a dog "specialist".

I wouldn't hire an animal behaviorist to teach me everything I needed to know about horses - including handling, body language, equine social structure, breeding, riding, training, etc...I would hire an experienced horse handler, trainer, or riding instructor. But I would not discount the animal behaviorist's ability to teach me something which could be helpful, either.

A degree simply proves that a person passed a course which contains a very specific body of knowledge at a specific point in time. A degree is no absolute measure of intelligence, skill, hands-on experience, competence, compassion, or character.

There are certain people who were born with a gift which no amount of money or education can buy. Lerning to play the violin will not make you a virtioso, unless the ability already exists to some degree.

Education also means continuing education and the exploration of all aspects of the topic of interest, which includes related fields of study, knowing the difference between the laboratory and the real world, and not getting stuck in fixed belief systems. If we live with an animal socially, we need personal experience and understanding in that area as well.

And yes, this does seem to be yet another indirect jab at CM. But it's not CM I see out there following and preaching the "radical behaviorist" doctrine and counter-conditioning dogs without a specific degree in behaviorism, it's the "uneducated" clicker trainers playing at amature behaviorist, and failing because they don't know what they're doing.

Eventually, I hope to see a bigger field of vision which leaves no stone unturned in understanding everything which is "dog". The study of general "behaviorism" alone, just doesn't cut-it in the real world, IMO.

snownose

 

Do they have to take tests to prove that they are on top of their game.......I think not.....that has been one of the political issues here in our state.......

Well, as far as professional development classes (different from in-service days where there may be a workshop or presentation, PD classes are actual semester-long classes), they do have to pass the class. In most professions once you get credentialed, you don't have any more credentialing tests to take (doctors don't have to constantly take their boards, for example, lawyers don't have to take the bar over and over), but if you take professional development or continuing education classes, you do have to get a passing grade in the class for the credits to count. It's not a perfect system, mainly because in many places the PD classes are arranged by the districts and are totally Micky Mouse and designed specifically so everybody passes. But lots of teachers take their PD classes at the same colleges and universities as everyone else and are not held to a lower standard in order to get passing grades.

I think it's pretty much impossible to fire a teacher belonging to a union, even if said teacher doesn't perform very well....doctors on the other hand are tested in the field every day.....if they mess up, they'll get sued.......lawyers won't have clients if they don't perform....

IMO, the public education system is in shambles......

Yeah and it IS regulated.  It's no wonder the dog equivalent is in such a mess. 

Oh, I get it now... so THAT's what the thread is really about. I see. You're getting pretty good at disguising anti-CM threads as just innocent discussions...   But I eventually catch on. I'm no dummy. LOL

No, that's not what the thread is about, however, it is usually the same people here who usually dismiss education in favor of that particular brand of "education".  So, if the shoe fits...otherwise, we were discussing what an animal behaviorist's qualifications really look like.  And, the fact is that to call oneself an animal behaviorist, if we accept that someone with a Ph.D. or a DVM has that right, the links to the vitae that I posted are what a person would need to really be considered educated on the subject academically speaking.  I'm sure you have known some people with advanced degrees who lacked common sense, or who were "stupid" as you put it, but the vast majority of people who take the time to get a formal education in a subject are smart and capable.  Somehow, you seem to want to see advanced education as a negative, which it is not.  I don't slam people because they don't have "a piece of paper".  If I disagree with them, I do it based on what they espouse that I disagree with, not where they got their information.  However, I always do wonder why people are so ardent in their defense of NOT pursuing further formal education, as if it would somehow diminish the person's capabilities.  IMO, no matter who we are talking about, everyone should aspire to a higher standard in their chosen profession, and not be satisfied that they know it all and need go no further.  Do you disagree with that statement?

Angelique

Personally, I'm in favor of both education and experience. Some folks start with personal experience and continue their education simply because they can't help it. Education also involves more than one specific field of study of animals in general and/or behaviorism in general. An animal "behaviorist" is not a dog "specialist".

I wouldn't hire an animal behaviorist to teach me everything I needed to know about horses - including handling, body language, equine social structure, breeding, riding, training, etc...I would hire an experienced horse handler, trainer, or riding instructor. But I would not discount the animal behaviorist's ability to teach me something which could be helpful, either.

A degree simply proves that a person passed a course which contains a very specific body of knowledge at a specific point in time. A degree is no absolute measure of intelligence, skill, hands-on experience, competence, compassion, or character.

There are certain people who were born with a gift which no amount of money or education can buy. Lerning to play the violin will not make you a virtioso, unless the ability already exists to some degree.

Education also means continuing education and the exploration of all aspects of the topic of interest, which includes related fields of study, knowing the difference between the laboratory and the real world, and not getting stuck in fixed belief systems. If we live with an animal socially, we need personal experience and understanding in that area as well.

And yes, this does seem to be yet another indirect jab at CM. But it's not CM I see out there following and preaching the "radical behaviorist" doctrine and counter-conditioning dogs without a specific degree in behaviorism, it's the "uneducated" clicker trainers playing at amature behaviorist, and failing because they don't know what they're doing.

Eventually, I hope to see a bigger field of vision which leaves no stone unturned in understanding everything which is "dog". The study of general "behaviorism" alone, just doesn't cut-it in the real world, IMO.

Believe it or not, I agree with you.  But, you stopped short - it is "uneducated" trainers of all types playing at being amateur behaviorists that fail if they don't know what they are doing.  And, if you bother to really study some of the other trainers and behaviorists work, you would find that they are not all preaching "radical behaviorist doctrine" (what's that, anyway - anything that "balanced" trainers disagree with???).  The very key to not getting stuck in fixed belief systems is to understand the nature of science.  Everything is just hypothesis until we can prove it.  But, sometimes we can.  Otherwise, we'd still be thinking the Earth is flat.

I never went to college, never studied animal behavior in any formal setting. I have studied some animal science on my own, I have studied ~ and continue to study ~ a lot of animal behavior outside of scientific study.

When I first started learning dog training as a trade, I was taught that it is part science and part art. I am much more adept at the art aspect of dog training. To my knowledge, there is no piece of paper that can qualify someone in that.

I get confused sometimes by all the scientific terminology. I don't believe that not having a scientific degree in animals makes me any less capable of training them. I don't believe that a degree in the scientific aspect of animal behavior is all there is to learning about dogs and dog training.

I don't believe that a degree in anything for that matter is all there is to learning a profession. If I did I would blindly choose the first doctor's listing I came to in the phone book. I don't do that. I get referrals from people I know, I call doctors and ask them questions, get a feel for them and how they think.

And spiritdogs, the links didn't work for me.

spiritdogs

Oh, I get it now... so THAT's what the thread is really about. I see. You're getting pretty good at disguising anti-CM threads as just innocent discussions...   But I eventually catch on. I'm no dummy. LOL

No, that's not what the thread is about

Sure  

spiritdogs

 

Oh, I get it now... so THAT's what the thread is really about. I see. You're getting pretty good at disguising anti-CM threads as just innocent discussions...   But I eventually catch on. I'm no dummy. LOL

No, that's not what the thread is about, however, it is usually the same people here who usually dismiss education in favor of that particular brand of "education". 

I had the exact same thoughts when I saw this thread.  I do think that in your subconscious mind, that this is the reason you posted this.  I get a feeling of deja vu with this thread... like it has been discussed many times before by the same people.  Do you feel threatened by people without a college degree working as dog trainers? There are only around 50 Applied Animal Behaviorists in the world.  How on earth are each of them going to be able to help every single dog in this world with behavorial problems? 

I am getting SO SO SO bored of CM.  Can't we have just ONE "buyer beware" thread about behaviourists without THAT name coming up?  Anyone would think he was the ONLY "un-educated" trainer out there.... sheesh, sometimes I wonder if I am in the twilight zone and he IS actually the only trainer anywhere, good OR bad.  Get over the guy!   He's just a TV personality!

Just happened to pick this spot to reply.

First, I would like to clear up a misconception earlier in the thread. Electricians and plumbers do not have to have a college degree. They are skilled tradesmen. I have a master license and I got it the hard way. I have over two decades of experience and studied the code book (NEC - National Electrical Code) and took the test on my own. I did not specifically go to trade school. I learned everything from the ground up, literally. I have, however, been to college a few times, pursuing a degree in EE (electrical engineering) that I have never been able to finish. I have studied electricity and electronics since 1974 and started doing electrical work in 1983. And granted, I have seen a few people who did well in trade school and didn't know some of the basic things one learns from the school of hard knocks. It took me 7 times to pass the journeyman, because I kept making the same mistake ( an omission of a multiplying factor on electrical motors) and twice to pass the master. And I knew a guy who was in trade school who passed his journeyman test the first time and didn't know how to set a threaded wedge anchor in the floor to bolt down a tugger machine we use to pull big wire. I know a guy who's been in trade school recently and can't bend pipe worth a flip. His solution is to abandon the task and find something else.

But, if you ask me, my experience and my license are both valuable. And my education in electricity and theory goes beyond the requirements of even a master license. Most people I have worked with know to bond the neutral and ground together at the first means of disconnect, which is either a main breaker in a house panel or a switchgear or main distribution panel in a commercial building because that is what is required by the NEC and the local inspector. And most don't know why. It's called the ground fault current path and without it, a breaker wouldn't trip and whatever is getting electrocuted will continued to get flambee'd. I know it because of a desire to learn more than just the experience of always doing it because it has been required. More specifically, I got into learning that tidbit through the continuing education I am required to learn in order to maintain my license.

So, to discount education because some people have been successful without it is, IMHO, not always the best thinking.

I've got a general question for those who are so quick to dismiss creds. Next time you are ill, consider who you would rather go to? A person who has learned some stuff on their and seems to have good luck with it or someone who is degreed, certified, and deemed qualified to handle the problem?

If you need a mechanic, would you rather go to the neighbor who always seems to be fixing the car or do you go to an ASE certified mechanic?

If you are having electrical work done on your house or a new house being built for you, do you want a guy who has been doing it a while, or do you want a guy with a license, who has done it for at least 4 to 6 years and cracked the code book long enough to take a test and pass it? Journeyman test is 4 hours and 80 questions. Master is 5 hours and 100 questions. While it may not mean they are the best electrician in the whole world, it does show that they know how to find the correct answer in a short amount of time. And have done it for a certain amount of time. And no, it's not always the defining factor but it's better than nothing.

spiritdogs

IMO, no matter who we are talking about, everyone should aspire to a higher standard in their chosen profession, and not be satisfied that they know it all and need go no further.  Do you disagree with that statement?

If I understand the question, I agree AND disagree. I don't think it's necessary for everyone to aspire to a higher formal education in their chosen profession. If you're really good at something and you're satisfied in your life and making a valuable contribution to society and fulfilled and content, I'm not sure you should keep pushing for better and better professional goals. That's a personal choice.

Before I retired, I was an electronics technician. I LOVED my job and I was really good at it. I had reached a level in my performance and job description that many said encompassed what the finest engineers were doing anyway. So I was (many times) encouraged to go back to school and become an engineer. They would pay for it. I could make more money. I declined. Because I loved where I was! What I was doing. I didn't want to "go further" in my profession and become an engineer. 

Of course we should aspire to a higher standard (which I always do), but that doesn't equate to a higher formal education. 

Secondly I agree that people shouldn't be satisfied that they know it all. There's always something to learn. But a formal education is just one resource of furthering one's education. Life (IMO) is the greatest teacher. I'm not discounting a formal education. It's great. It's just not the only way to go.

ShelterDogs

spiritdogs

 

Oh, I get it now... so THAT's what the thread is really about. I see. You're getting pretty good at disguising anti-CM threads as just innocent discussions...   But I eventually catch on. I'm no dummy. LOL

No, that's not what the thread is about, however, it is usually the same people here who usually dismiss education in favor of that particular brand of "education". 

I had the exact same thoughts when I saw this thread.  I do think that in your subconscious mind, that this is the reason you posted this.  I get a feeling of deja vu with this thread... like it has been discussed many times before by the same people.  Do you feel threatened by people without a college degree working as dog trainers? There are only around 50 Applied Animal Behaviorists in the world.  How on earth are each of them going to be able to help every single dog in this world with behavorial problems? 

The short answer is they can't.  And, what many people don't understand is that quite a few of us have been doing this since before the profession had any college Masters programs specific to dogs.  I would LOVE to go back and get a Master's in Animal Behavior (canine), but it costs at least $21,000 which I, at my age, I cannot afford to spend this close to retirement.  If I were younger, I would certainly take a loan and go for it.

I just opened a package yesterday with another $100 worth of books in it.  I am always reading, doing, learning.  I have sought the education I could afford thus far, I've picked experienced and well respected people to apprentice under, and I keep up with the literature and the latest texts.  I would love to have a better formal education, because even at the baccalaureate level, I was impressed with how much the study of general psychology actually added to my knowledge of dog behavior.  I certainly don't feel threatened by the professionals here who are better educated - I have two of those 50 behaviorists practically in my back yard, and consider myself lucky that they are.  I continue to do behavioral consultations, and I occasionally make referrals to them when a dog has a problem I think is better addressed by someone at that level, so I feel that my clients have the benefit, not only of my expertise, but of people who can address their problems medically and in depth when necessary.  Conversely, I feel confident that these people, both veterinary behaviorists, respect me as a trainer/consultant and do not feel that I am overstepping my level of expertise.  This isn't about ego, it's about helping dogs...

FourIsCompany

Life (IMO) is the greatest teacher.

Gosh yes.  But the thing about THAT kind of learning is:

You learn from your mistakes

Unless you accept the benefit of other kinds of education (and by that I mean either college, apprenticeships, or studying a subject through books, seminars etc.) whereby you get some of the benefit of OTHER people's experience (on TOP of your own) you can be very behind in your own field...