Article on Ian Dunbar

Liesje

Do you watch Victoria Stillwell? 

I like her! And Jay Stutz (Good Dog U). I used to watch that show all the time. I wish there was a larger variety of dog training shows on, too. I would love for Ian Dunbar to have a show. I think it would be very informative.

 Whether you like Jay Stutz or not, I would hardly consider him a positive trainer in the same category with people like Karen Pryor, Emma Parsons, Pat Miller and similar individuals.  He's still using correction when positive means would work just as well, although admittedly not so much as some others.

 OK, just jumping in quickly to say.... I went back to edit my last post to add:

While I can't fault the actual information on the site, I have no taste at all for how it is worded.  It could have been done far better.

But for some reason, it didn't register my edit.... maybe I did something wrong as I was in a hurry.... anyway, now I got to finish catching up.... 

Millan also advocates a trusting and respectful relationship, treating dogs as companions and family members (just not human beings). Many times, he has said that dogs are NOT lesser, just different.

From the perspective of someone who watches The Dog Whisperer and knows what Cesar actually advocates and not just the sensationalism that anti-Cesar people preach, nearly every paragraph is a cut or jab at Cesar, and not even accurate at that.

I'm baffled how you can watch the show and come out with these statements. The man may go around SAYING words like "respect" and "trust", but his actions don't support what he is saying. I have a theory, which of course will offend everyone and can't be proven, that people who are CM fans are in general really bad at reading doggy body language. I can't even watch the show, I see the dogs reactions to CM's behaviors and I cringe and have to leave the room. Even the dogs on my videos from Leerburg, being rather harshly treated at times, don't exhibit such disturbed and upset body language.

mudpuppy

Even the dogs on my videos from Leerburg, being rather harshly treated at times, don't exhibit such disturbed and upset body language.

At the risk of going off topic (Sorry) I'm not claiming that the dogs aren't upset. They are problem dogs and he takes a straightforward approach to dealing with the problems. Yes, the dogs get upset. They're no longer being allowed to run the household like they were before he came along. This dude comes into their lives and homes and shakes it up. The people have hired him to do so. So yes, the dogs get upset and are thrown for a bit of a loop by this strange fellow. And if you could force yourself to stay in the room, you would see many times that the dogs end up being very attached to Cesar and responding to HIM, cuddling with him and following him, rather than their own owner. 

What he does works. The follow-ups show that it does. And if the dog is uncomfortable or upset for a short period of time, it's worth it. Better than nothing being done and the dog live for years with the aggression and stress I see in some of the dogs. Or worse, it ends up back in the shelter system with its life on the line.

It's unrealistic to expect every moment of a dog's life to be pleasant. There is unpleasantnesses, fear and stress in life. He moves them through it quickly and gets them on a track of living life as a dog again...

Dunbar is a great dog trainer. And if he hadn't mentioned Cesar in every other paragraph, this thread would be about him instead of Cesar.  

FourIsCompany

And if you could force yourself to stay in the room, you would see many times that the dogs end up being very attached to Cesar and responding to HIM, cuddling with him and following him, rather than their own owner. 

Appeasement?

FourIsCompany

What he does works. The follow-ups show that it does.

He's not exactly going to DO follow-up that don't show that is he?  It's TV.  Of course it's edited to look good.

FourIsCompany

And if the dog is uncomfortable or upset for a short period of time, it's worth it.

Ah!  The crux, nub and heart of the matter!  We differ right there, at that exact point. 

FourIsCompany

Better than nothing being done and the dog live for years with the aggression and stress I see in some of the dogs.

In some cases, I might agree with you here.  CM is better than nothing, but it's not hard to be better than nothing.  Mind you, he;s made a TV career out of it, so good for him.

FourIsCompany

Dunbar is a great dog trainer. And if he hadn't mentioned Cesar in every other paragraph, this thread would be about him instead of Cesar.

Yes, and if those people had gone to Dunbar instead of CM they probably would have got results there too (what he does works as well).  But you still wouldn't have seen it on TV.   

CM "reaches people".  He does that very, very well.  It is that which makes him remarkable, not his abilities with dogs.

Dunbar DOES have remarkable abilities with dogs, IMO.  Not only that, but he has inspired people in his OWN way.  He has created a revolution in the dog world.  And, just like the dog's he's worked with, he's done it the boring way!

Chuffy

Ah!  The crux, nub and heart of the matter!  We differ right there, at that exact point. 

What point? Do you think dogs should never feel discomfort? Is that realistic for ANY living being to never feel discomfort, unease, stress?

You know I didn't say CM is better than nothing. I happen to think much more highly of him than that. I said the dog feeling bad for a short time is better than letting him live his life without help. And now that you mention it, I happen to believe that a short period of discomfort is better than drawing the healing out over weeks and months as is done by other methods.  

And I don't think dogs are attracted to Cesar because of appeasement. I think they feel his leadership and are drawn to him.  

Chuffy

He's not exactly going to DO follow-up that don't show that is he? 

And I have yet to see any indication of his failure rate...

Chuffy

Yes, and if those people had gone to Dunbar instead of CM they probably would have got results there too (what he does works as well).  But you still wouldn't have seen it on TV.   

I don't argue with Dunbar's effectiveness. And I'm sorry it's not on TV. I think it should be.  

mudpuppy

Even the dogs on my videos from Leerburg, being rather harshly treated at times, don't exhibit such disturbed and upset body language.

I guess people see what they look for. I would just point out that many of the dogs on the show are displaying 'disturbed and upset body language' before CM even arrives. He is not coming to work with happy well adjusted dogs. Anyone can read the distress, fear, anxiety etc. that is present in these dogs - even if you are a CM fan, it's quite obvious!  

FourIsCompany

You know I didn't say CM is better than nothing.

These are your words from a post a few posts previous:

"What he does works. The follow-ups show that it does. And if the dog is uncomfortable or upset for a short period of time, it's worth it. Better than nothing being done and the dog live for years with the aggression and stress I see in some of the dogs"

You were defending CM and use the phrase "better than nothing being done" and that is how the link is formed that you were, in a sense, saying that CM was better than nothing. FWIW, I don't think it was meant as an insult to you, just a notion that one could do better than CM, which is an opinion, albeit.

the dogs end up being very attached to Cesar and responding to HIM, cuddling with him and following him, rather than their own owner.

I think my theory that people who like CM are really bad at reading doggy body language is holding up very well. The dogs all look pretty happy until CM starts man-handling them, and I find these images of the dogs begging CM to not kill them even more disturbing than watching him crush their spirits.

mudpuppy

the dogs end up being very attached to Cesar and responding to HIM, cuddling with him and following him, rather than their own owner.

I think my theory that people who like CM are really bad at reading doggy body language is holding up very well. The dogs all look pretty happy until CM starts man-handling them, and I find these images of the dogs begging CM to not kill them even more disturbing than watching him crush their spirits.

Heck, mudpuppy, I've known dogs that would probably leave their owners for the pizza delivery guy or the mailman if he showed them an ounce of attention.  And, I think that most average dog owners, not just the ones that like CM, have little real knowledge of the intricacies of canine body language - sometimes, not even of the more obvious signals.  That's the reason why a lot of trainers tell their students that if they are going to watch, do it with the sound off and observe the dogs.  Maybe try the same thing while watching a Dunbar video or "It's Me or the Dog", or anyone else, for that matter.

mudpuppy

I have a theory [...] CM fans are in general really bad at reading doggy body language.

mudpuppy

The dogs all look pretty happy until CM starts man-handling them, and I find these images of the dogs begging CM to not kill them even more disturbing than watching him crush their spirits.

spiritdogs

And, I think that most average dog owners, not just the ones that like CM, have little real knowledge of the intricacies of canine body language

And once again... Bashing CM and his fans becomes the subject of a thread that was supposed to be about someone else entirely. It's too bad even Dunbar's fans can't make him sound very good without putting down Cesar AND his fans...

 I respect Dunbar and his knowledge of dogs but agree with other posters in that the article makes him look bad (IMO) because more time is spent talking bad about Milan. He should be able to stand on his own work and IMO he would be much better received if there were less comments about Cesar.Sometimes him and Jean seem almost desperate in their attempts to focus attention on themselves and off Cesar that they appear to be a couple of third graders trying to outshine the teachers pet.

dgriego

Sometimes him and Jean seem almost desperate in their attempts to focus attention on themselves and off Cesar that they appear to be a couple of third graders trying to outshine the teachers pet.

I tend to stay out of any training discussion because I don't follow anyones particular method.  I guess you could say that I use Steve's method even when it comes to agility training. 

But, from what I always see is jealousy directed at CM all the time.  I really believe that there are people that can't stand the fact that a immigrant came to this country with basically nothing and has done so well.  They can't stand that he has a very successful TV show and they don't.  Instead of promoting their methods they take every oppertunity to tear him down.  CM has really done a great service to the training community.  He has shown to the masses that dogs with problems can be fixed.  They don't have to be dumped in a shelter because they are untrainable.  Has any of the other big time trainers been able to get that message to JQ Public.  I think not.

So.......back to the discussion of the article on IAN DUNBAR?