Chevy's story

sl2crmeg

A question for you - you have an aggressive dog, and you don't vaccinate...not even for rabies? What would happen if your dog bit a person outside of your family? Do you perform titers yearly? Do you have a rabies vaccine waiver?

It's a good question, might not really be up to the owner to decide.  I think here, even a vaccinated dog must be placed in quarantine following a reported bite incident.

I'm glad the OP has found solutions that work.  I have been having some ongoing problems with one of my own dogs so I know how it feels to need an answer or an explanation (see my thread in Health).  It's been nearly three years and finally I have resigned myself to the fact that it simply doesn't matter why my dog is the way she is or whether there's a medical term for it, as long as we find a solution that works we will be happy.  I don't need to say she's OCD or she's autistic or she's neurotic or whatever, pretending to give the dog a human medical diagnosis is of no value to me, it doesn't change how she acts or how we need to proceed.

http://www.minimum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1763&highlight=autism

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070906140744.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2008/02/22/2168938.htm

http://a1harmony.com/us-6-animal-autism.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdQVq4aKRr0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyaVxYYVfQE&feature=related

Leading Voices in Homeopathy Forum Index -> Richard Pitcairn, D.V.M., Ph.D.

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JanManning Joined: 12 Feb 2009 Posts: 2 Location: Thompson Falls, MT	Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:22 pm    Post subject: Nutraceutical help for Canine Autism Last week I called Dr. Marty Goldstein and requested info on canine autism. He referred me to you and said you had nutraceutical suggestions to help with this condition. As a behaviorist and trainer I've worked with thousands of dogs, and every so often come across one who displays some of the same characteristics as a high-functioning autistic human. I have a 12-year-old Greater Swiss who has ALWAYS been "off." He relates to spacial issues in an abnormal way, is extremely body sensitive except for his face and head, has difficulty understanding cause and effect, is very into routine, and is trainable only to a certain extent before a wall goes up and shuts off his ability to learn. He's always been extremely reactive. He's not aggressive, but showed abnormally agitated behavior when he was younger. He does not think, and doesn't seem to make choices. He simply reacts to routine. If routine is disrupted, he is lost. We've owned several Swissies and, please believe me, this dog has NEVER been "normal" by any standards. This dog was immunized "regularly" when he was younger (starting with puppy shots and annual boosters like clockwork, till he was about four years old). Is there any help for him at this advanced age?
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DrPitcairn Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 1405 Location: Sedona, Arizona	Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:01 pm    Post subject: I think it possible that repeated vaccinations may be a factor in this. One could try homeopathic treatment along those lines to test that theory. Do ou need a referral to a homeopathic veterinarian? _________________ Best wishes, Richard H. Pitcairn, DVM, PhD
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JanManning Joined: 12 Feb 2009 Posts: 2 Location: Thompson Falls, MT	Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:18 am    Post subject: I would appreciate a referral to a trusted homeopathic vet in the Missoula area or elsewhere in northwestern Montana or norhtern Idaho. Thanks.
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DrPitcairn Joined: 31 Jan 2007 Posts: 1405 Location: Sedona, Arizona	Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:52 pm    Post subject: I can't say "trusted" veterinarians but there are a few in the states you mentioned. They have taken homeopathic training with me but you will have to see if they are still using it. Let me know if any of them work out for you. John Bigley, DVM Driggs, ID (208) 354-2212 Ellen German, DVM Boise, ID (208) 562-0156 Patricia Saras, DVM Hagerman, ID (208) 733-0657 Kristen Hollemans, DVM Polson, MT (406) 883-6613 Sonya Whiteley, DVM Billings, MT (406) 628-4683 _________________ Best wishes, Richard H. Pitcairn, DVM, PhD
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	Leading Voices in Homeopathy Forum Index -> Richard Pitcairn, D.V.M., Ph.D.	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
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http://www.britfeld.com/vaccination-adverse.htm

No one disputes that vaccines can be problematic.  However, the research is inconclusive as to the exact syndromes which are causally related.  Hystaria about vaccines can be counter productive as well, usually resulting in resurgence of disease.  I believe Dr. Dodd's protocal is the best science has to offer at the moment. As the research continues more definative answers will emerge.  Homeopathic supports are definately worthwhile and make tremendous differences for some dealing with the side effects of disease or medication.

Until you have lived with the devestation of autism in children either as a parent or a care provider I don't think it is possible to understand how insulting it may appear to use the term to describe a neurological syndrome in dogs (or any other animal).  Autism is a frontal lobe disorder with distortions in sensory systems as well.  Dogs do not have frontal lobes.

If I were posting on a human forum I would be in total agreement with you.  But since I am posting in a Dog community forum.    Well,  what can I say...

As a rescuer of abused and mistreated pup's this information need's to be out there "On Dog Forum's" and does'nt need to be debated like this.  Let the pet owner find help if he or she believe's his or her pup is affected and know that the situation is not hopeless.  That is all I am saying.     You and I could argue about this till the end of time and it would not be helping anyone.  I am not posting about human's I am posting about Dog's and my own Dog.  Why do you keep bringing up human children when we are on a Dog forum?   

PS.   If I were posting about epilepsy, diabetes, depression or any other disorder or disease that affect's both human and animal you would have nothing to say.   Let the people that need this information read it and use it for their pet if needed...

So is this autism, or isn't it?  Because it doesn't SOUND like autism.  Surely calling it something it is not is misleading, potentially misleading for people who may need the info about symptoms and treatments?

 Tail docking and vaccinations are totally different procedures, and are not done at the same time. Tails are docked no later than 3 days, and vaccines don't start til 6 weeks, at the earliest. The whole thread is pretty haphazard.

Vaccines have caused issues for my *own* dogs. One of them is epileptic, really spaces out at times (like for months), and can be aggressive. That doesn't make her autistic. It just makes her Emma, with an undiagnosed problem related to her brain.

mrv

However, I also understand that regardless the situation, they are not equal to human children. 

I wish you would not make that assertion.  While I sympathize with your understanding of the autism spectrum of disorders, and accept that, until we know whether or not autism afflicts other species, you prefer we not use the term for dogs yet, I will tell you that to some people who have no children, their dogs are considered family the same way you regard human family.  And, respectfully again, there are cultures that believe all beings are related, and that no species has any more right than another to exist.  So, please, can we ALL try to speak according to scientific current knowledge, but also be culturally and socially sensitive, too?  You are free to think that your children are more significant than dogs, but, frankly, I know people who, if your kid and their dog were drowning, would grab their dog...you may not agree with that, and think it horrific that someone would make such a choice, but people are all different, and I'm just here playing devil's advocate for those who aren't as inclined to think that one species is more important than another. 

My major concern about the thread dealt with the diagnosis of a serious neurological condition that has correlated but not causal data available at this time. 

My personal views about using the term are no longer necessary to discuss, they are merely the result of working with folks with disabilities starting in my early teens.

I feel that homeopathic treatments are wonderful.  I believe that folks can get wonderful insights and supports working with vets and others who are knowledgable about options.

The Internet is a "living" thing that tends to evolve.  There are times when what is available on the net is not accurate and times when it is.  When talking about medical issues, I prefer to err on the side of published research, not anecdotal statements.

All life is sacred.  And if a kid is in trouble, that is where I am headed first.

Thanks for the constructive comments regarding my dog with suspected autism, and all the people that messaged me backchannel with advice and support. I hope this message doesn't come across harshly, but I've had the most horrific two days - one of my pups drowned yesterday in a swimming pool. I'd gone to an all day work seminar on Saturday and arranged for two of my puppies to be puppysat by two young girls who knew the dogs well.  Unfortunately it looks as though one managed to get outside the house, and unbeknown to me the house they visited with my pups had an in-ground swimming pool. My dog Yeti, not the autistic one, fell into it and drowned.  Despite some pretty valiant attempts by people to revive her, she didn't regain consciousness.  So I'm grieving for one of my precious babies right now. It's a sober reminder that swimming pools, and fish ponds, are a very real danger not just to children, but dogs too.

__

Since I first wrote my first message I've talked with a few vets, all of which have confirmed that it is possible to get an autistic dog.  I've also spoken to a doggy day care centre, that also have the same opinion. 

Stardog 85, your suggestion of vaccinosis was a very good one.  Unfortunately my dog shows no signs of vaccinosis, so that's not the issue.  I still believe vaccines are the problem, but not so much because of the vaccines per se which contain the heavy toxic metal mercury, but because of the underlying methylation problem which means that these dogs with an inability to methylate properly or poor ability to methylate can't actually chelate the heavy metals from their system, so then they just accumulate.

I have managed to locate a vet who is also a naturopath and into integrative medicine (the juncture between conventional medicine and naturopathic/homeopathic medicine), and she has given me the dosages of the necessary vitamins and nutrients needed to boost my dog's methylation pathway.  I have most of the medications already at home, so I will be starting her on them shortly. I've taken her off all gluten and all preservatives and additives - she was really only getting them from a couple of treats as I'm into giving dogs mostly fresh foods anyway.  They love their blanched chicken bones and their baked lamb shanks, and they also love their raw string beans. I'm still working on other vegies, the only one's they really like are corn.  And every 3 days I give them a bowl of fresh goat's milk, which they adore.

The mum of this pup was very depleted of nutrients as a result of her pregnancy. Five puppies for a tiny chihuahua was a huge load for her to carry and feed, she looked really haggard.  So I'm also operating on the basis that this pup might be nutrient deficient and supplementing her accordingly.

There have been some improvements since I've started doing this, and making her have some really long cuddles (popping her under my jumper next to my chest).  She is now asking for about one cuddle a day. She seems more alive too. She is still very aggressive at times with the other dogs if they get too close to her.  I took her out for a short walk yesterday and a dog got too close to her and she screamed and screamed and screamed, so I've still got a long way to go with her.

mrv, sorry you haven't actually written your name, maybe you choose to be anonymous for a reason.  I was offended by your post, and as it was the first post I received since I joined this board, it was packed with a punch that really hurt me. This is an animal forum and I wrote seeking help for my dog. I almost pressed the abuse button after reading your post.  It wasn't until some others from here encouraged me to reply backchannel that I decided to give this forum another chance.  You see I am infertile.  I underwent many many rounds of IVF without success.  I do not have human children, I unfortunately will never have a human child, something I will never truly recover from. The only human babies I have are 18 frozen embryo's that live in a laboratory cannister that I know will never survive if put in me, they will share the same fate as the 30 or so others put in me over the years that died!  So, now I am a mother to chihuahua's, they are my babies.  I even call one of my puppies "Bubby" and he comes running to mummy (ME). Spiritdogs, I share your viewpoint, my dogs truly are my babies.

As for autism, there's been some absoloutely ground-breaking research, and the implementation of this research into humans with autism. I'm working on much of the stuff that the Pfeiffer Treatment Centre have come up with in their treatment of those with autism (amongst other conditions). In medicine and the health sciences, there has always been a cross fertilization of ideas from the animal world to humans and vice-versa.  Of course once people come up with theories, it's a matter of getting others interested in it in order to research it.  However, for studies to have any clinical and "statistical significance" there needs to be a potential for money to be made from the research in order to attract financial backing.  If there's no financial backing, things don't tend to get studied.  Studies involving n = < 2,000 really mean zilch in the scientific community.

Jennie_c_d wrote about one of her dogs being epileptic. Epilepsy can be marked by a trance like state, so it sounds like your dogs epilepsy may not be well controlled. Have you considered putting her on the co-factor nutrients and amino acids for the INHIBITORY neurotransmitters, such as GABA.  I know in humans they can now be tested for an amino acid profile and do a neurotransmitter metabolite test. If your able to get these done for your dog, by someone experienced in the interpretation of these tests, which is highly complex, you might be able to work out what your dog is deficient in.  Have you done the basic screening tests for your dog?  ie. a MRI of her head?  in order to check for tumours and the like.

My understanding of Chevy's situation that she wrote about was that her dog's tail was docked at the same time as it was vaccinated.  Is this correct Chevy?  Maybe this is not normal protocol, but my understanding was that this is her subjective experience, and that seems to have been missed somehow. 

 My thanks to Chevy for her lovely respectful messages and tips, they have been so incredibly useful - thanks so much.

Karina

("A closed mind is like having a parachute that won't open";)

Karina, I am so sorry about your dog who drowned.  My deepest sympathy to you. 

My apologies to those offended by my attempts to clarify diagnosis and the value of children.  I was not attacking rather attempting to remove the focus from the term autism, nothing else.  As to my name, I have been MRV for years and have used that signature in most all correspondence that was not formal business.  It has nothing to do with attempting to hide, check out my profile should you wish more information about me.

 Karinac, I'm glad to see you have returned. Unfortunately your original post seemed to get a little pushed aside in the discussion. It is very difficult to find help when a diagnosis is not or cannot be confirmed. I am in a similar situation with my dog and find myself treating a disease that I'm not 100& sure he has. So I empathize with you and encourage you to follow your gut on this. It sounds like you are seeing progress with your strategies so far.

I am so sorry for your lose this weekend. My thoughts and prayers are with you and I wish you all the best.

 Emma is almost 6 years old, and has had seizures since she was 5 months. She has never had an MRI, because the initial cause of her seizures is known. She is very closely monitered, by several vets, and her seizures are under control. She has a cluster twice a year, or so. She went into an ongoing "funk" last year, that lasted 4ish months, and everything was reevaluated. She had bloodwork, new medicine, new food, and she's finally back, acting like her crazy little self.