Pack Rules

Chuffy

I do agree with controlling resources, but not to the point of routinely taking dog's stuff away.  I don't think that teaches them anything, although with some dogs it will teach them they better watch out cos Twolegs are likely to swipe stuff if you don't keep a tight hold of it.

Not with my dogs.....they actually come up and show me when they have something special, almost like a little game, then I say" What do you have, let me see", meanwhile their tails are wagging and I take the item look at it,comment on it, and stick it right back in their mouths....it's more like a game than a two legged person claiming their item.....actually, it can't affect them too much, they keep doing the same thing over....and over....

FourIsCompany

By whom was this determined? 

By people who own more than 2 dogs. Yourself, for example. Even in this thread, you pointed out that my one dog one cat experience is different than having 2 or more dogs. That the pack behavior you see is only between dogs. I'm not arguing that. You and others may very well be right. Dog to dog is different and dogs cannot form a pack with a cat. I'm not denying that statement. I'm simply using logic with the statements others give. I know, arguing with logic is patently unfair.

FourIsCompany

you're building a conclusion on a statement that has no basis

Your words, not mine. I was not the one to originate the statement that dogs only truly form a pack with other dogs, that they cannot or will not form packs with other animals. I simply extrapolated that if dogs can't truly form a pack with a cat, then why should they be able to with a human, which is another animal? I don't see humans as being magically able to form a pack with dogs and cats can't. I was not the one who said that my one dog and one cat do not a pack make. In fact, I was accepting your statements and thinking logically from there.

Now, someone will go ahead and tell me how logic and science are woefully inadequate. That we can't mean what we mean by the words we use. In which case, that statement may be true, that logic and science are crappy since they don't support what a person might want them to say. In which case, we wander in a semantic helter skelter.

Ron, in actuality, science isn't always the answer....I was watching something on NGEO today,'The man who lives with wolves'.....he is not a scientist and put the scientific community on it's head....he had supporters and folks who didn't like what he is doing, but they can't explain why it works .....

snownose

Chuffy

I do agree with controlling resources, but not to the point of routinely taking dog's stuff away.  I don't think that teaches them anything, although with some dogs it will teach them they better watch out cos Twolegs are likely to swipe stuff if you don't keep a tight hold of it.

 

Not with my dogs.....they actually come up and show me when they have something special, almost like a little game, then I say" What do you have, let me see", meanwhile their tails are wagging and I take the item look at it,comment on it, and stick it right back in their mouths....it's more like a game than a two legged person claiming their item.....actually, it can't affect them too much, they keep doing the same thing over....and over....

What I meant by that "rule" was going over to them when they are minding their own business and taking stuff off them.  Like hen tey are eating or chewing.  I think them coming to "show" you is a different thing entirely.  Our young collie comes and "shows" us stuff all the time and yes, we can take it out of her mouth and put it back.... she actually does this cute game here she shows it to us both in turn and we BOTH take it off her and give it back.... 

My friends dog did that with BONES and she was told... get this.... the dog is showing you that THEY control the resources.  Just ignore them and certainly don't express an interest in what they have or they will think it really IS a high value item if you want it as well, but don't (dare not?) contest them for it!

I get so bored of all the "pack rules" that get bounced around... half of them contradict the other half and half of them are meaningless and arbitrary.  Some of them are symoblic of something that is meant to be meaningful to the dog, but I have to wonder if they "get" the symbolism or is it just waffle to them?  Or (and this is not totally improbable) they get it just fine and are laughing their heads off.....
 

Chuffy

I do agree with controlling resources, but not to the point of routinely taking dog's stuff away.  I don't think that teaches them anything, although with some dogs it will teach them they better watch out cos Twolegs are likely to swipe stuff if you don't keep a tight hold of it.  Honestly, with some dogs, you'll create a problem doing that.

I don't take it away, I take it from their mouth and give it back. I reach in their mouths and food bowls all the time, but rarely do I keep what I find (only if it's dangerous for them to have). I kept Cara from choking to death like that once. I want to feel confident that regardless of the situation, I (or the vet) can reach in their mouths and they'll be ok with it. I'm not swiping stuff.

Chuffy

As for backing down from a growl... I think you need to listen to what the dog is telling you. 

I have never had a dog growl at me. If a dog ever growled at me, I would certainly try and figure out why. In other words, I would listen to what he was saying. But I don't think I'd like it! LOL

Chuffy

Hmmm, ***MY RULES***

Nice! I like 'em!

I am gonna say this once, and want to make sure I am understood.....I refuse to live with, feed, take care and view my dogs as family, if I have to worry about them looking at me as a challenger over an item I gave to them....simple...

ron2

Your words, not mine.

They are not my words. Show me where I said that only dogs can pack with other dogs.

Ron...  I don't know what to say without getting edited here, but I'm not going to play this game. I'm having real discussions with other people.

Suffice it to say that, IMO, having a cat and a dog doesn't give the human the opportunity to observe the delicate interactions of a pack of dogs together. On the other hand, any group of beings living together can be considered a family or a pack, or a bonded social group, whatever you wish to call them.

Chuffy

I get so bored of all the "pack rules" that get bounced around... half of them contradict the other half and half of them are meaningless and arbitrary. 

The very reason that each person, dog owner, pack alpha or benevolent leader should make their own. Not one list can be applied to all situations.

FourIsCompany

Chuffy

As for backing down from a growl... I think you need to listen to what the dog is telling you. 

 

I have never had a dog growl at me. If a dog ever growled at me, I would certainly try and figure out why. In other words, I would listen to what he was saying. But I don't think I'd like it! LOL

Ditto me!  Well I've never had MY OWN dogs growl at me.  Kennel dogs have, on occasion.  I treated them all as "fearful" and won each one round.  But perhaps that's a little different than having your OWN dogs growl at you...

FourIsCompany

I don't take it away, I take it from their mouth and give it back. I reach in their mouths and food bowls all the time, but rarely do I keep what I find (only if it's dangerous for them to have). I kept Cara from choking to death like that once. I want to feel confident that regardless of the situation, I (or the vet) can reach in their mouths and they'll be ok with it. I'm not swiping stuff.

I think there's a very fine line between "take" and "have given to you, willingly" regardless of whether you give it back or not (although giving it back whenever you can is preferable).  I do prefer the latter. I think that in itself says a lot about me and my ideas and what I want from my animals and what I want from my r'ship w/ them.

How silly this thread is................

FourIsCompany

I'm having real discussions with other people

Meaning that my comments are not part of a real discussion? Or is that just implied? Is my feeling supposed to be hurt?

FourIsCompany

having a cat and a dog doesn't give the human the opportunity to observe the delicate interactions of a pack of dogs together.

Once again, you have just stated that. I'm not saying that there are not special interactions in a pack of dogs that one doesn't find with a cat. You just said that. And you referred to the group of dogs as a pack but not the coexistence of a dog and cat as a pack. Fair enough. I'm only going by your statements. And trying not to disagree. In fact, I thought I was agreeing and thinking logically.

Snownose--I think it's pretty safe for me to say that you love your dogs like I love Willow and you'd deal with it if you had too---I do.

Chuffy

I think there's a very fine line between "take" and "have given to you, willingly" regardless of whether you give it back or not (although giving it back whenever you can is preferable).

When I reach for my dog's mouth, they willingly give me whatever it is. It's not like I'm prying something out of their mouth.

Chuffy

I think that in itself says a lot about me and my ideas and what I want from my animals and what I want from my r'ship w/ them.

I don't know what you're trying to say here.

Swissy, I agree with you so much! I must stop coming in here...  

Vivdogz

My only point when starting this thread was to say that I dont thing that people are included in a the pack of dogs living under one roof.  The dogs may form a pack with their own species, but from my readings dogs are conspecific and do not form packs with any other animal.

I know this was way earlier in the thread, but I feel that I must respond anyway.  I have an older quarter horse mare that used to live with a dog (malamute/bouvier mix).  There were no other horses and no other dogs on the place.  The horse and dog were their own "pack" and/or "herd."  They most definitely communicated, and were bonded.  The dog had to be brought in the barn in bad weather (she had an outdoor house) or the horse would freak and not eat or stay in the barn.  When the dog went for a walk the horse ran the fence line and screamed.  When the horse left the property the dog did her "worried" bark.

Out of my two dogs, Sally at least seems to have an idea that the cats are there for more than recreational purposes.  She definitely tries to communicate with them in "dog language."  I have seen her offer calming signals to the more hostile of our cats.  When that particular cat attacks her (which happens several times a week) she reacts like she would to an irritating dog--ignores the unwanted behavior.  The other cat likes her better and she will actually groom her.  When Jack was out of commission for a while Sally would bring toys to the cats and try to get them to play with her.       

snownose

Ron, in actuality, science isn't always the answer....I was watching something on NGEO today,'The man who lives with wolves'.....he is not a scientist and put the scientific community on it's head....he had supporters and folks who didn't like what he is doing, but they can't explain why it works .....

I've seen that show. And what he did was controversial. He did not integrate himself into an established pack. He rescued orphaned cubs and raised them the way he thought wolves acted. That is, the wolves were raised with the human idea of wolves. For example, it has been noted that the alpha of a pack doesn't necessarily have to eat first but in his method, alpha ate first. Then, when he had to leave the pack, he lost all of his "alpha" points and was relegated to omega. But they were exhibiting behaviors he imprinted on them. Which might actually be a test case for what is called social learning or learning by example, even if it can still be described as OC. But I admired his work ethic. He would pull key pieces of meat out of the carcass, cook it, stick it back in, that way he could eat with them and appear to eat from the carcass raw. Though I'm sure with their keen sense of smell, they could probably tell that what he was eating was a little different.

But so far, the quintessential source on wolf behavior modernly has been L. David Mech. He has observed wolves in their own environment with as little disturbance as possible.