The Training/Behavior "Chatter" Thread

Cassidys Mom

It's not about withholding stuff for doing the wrong thing, it's about giving the dog the opportunity to GET stuff for getting it right.

Explain how the two, withholding and treating are not equal in strength.  The trainng can not take place without the pull of the two.  You ask or wait for the dog to offer the behavior you want.  Dogs are not mindreaders.  The dogs know you have a treat in hand.  The dog offers a behavior but its the wrong one.  You punish the dog by not rewarding.  This registers with the dog by evidence of the dog's very next behavior.  Either the dog will offer another behavior or exhibit one of the many subtle behaviors to signify frustration.

When the dog offers the wrong behavior why not tell the dog.

When I am training and treating a behavior, I set my dogs up to succeed and I break the behavior into mini steps so that I am able to constantly treat because there is no way to fail.

As far as withholding food, well, that doesn't happen here.  I keep my dogs lean and don't need to really worry about them getting fat from treats, but I have used kibble as training treats when I've run out of treats mid session.  If it comes from my hand, it's a treat.

glenmar

When I am training and treating a behavior, I set my dogs up to succeed and I break the behavior into mini steps so that I am able to constantly treat because there is no way to fail.

You have to be faster than a speeding bullet in order not to subject the dog to withholding a treat.  You can not escape or know the dog's the positive or negative reaction to the anticipation of getting a treat.  Anticipation is what is created.

anticipation
noun
1.	an expectation
2.	something expected (as on the basis of a norm); "each of them had their own anticipations"; "an indicator of expectancy in development"
3.	the act of predicting (as by reasoning about the future) [syn: prediction]
4.	anticipating with confidence of fulfillment

DPU

You have to be faster than a speeding bullet in order not to subject the dog to withholding a treat

Maybe that fast, hence the use of the clicker or other marker as a bridge.

DPU

You can not escape or know the dog's the positive or negative reaction to the anticipation of getting a treat. 

Granted, each dog may be different. But I cannot assume that every dog is going to suffer an ill effect from anticipating a treat. More personally, I haven't seen, in my ability to perceive, a negative or harmful psychological effect from using a clicker in training. I arbitrarily assume the perceived happiness of the dog to be in the acceptance and consumption of the treat and the attentiveness as yes, an anticipation of further treats but I haven't seen how that is harmful. Nor obssessive. And the trained behavior stays even as the clicker is faded and the rewards become variable in time and amount.

I also think it is a bit much to say that you must administer the treat at the instant of successful behavior. A dog seeking it's own reward "greet that dog over there" has to endure the time period it takes to get over there. But, with a marker, it is possible to be very quick in marking the behavior, which will always mean a treat is to come. And I don't think the one second lag between click and treat is creating harm.

 

DPU

When the dog offers the wrong behavior why not tell the dog.

Oh, you should! I definitely tell them when they've guessed wrong, but I use almost exclusively verbal corrections - negative, aka no-reward markers which aren't really corrections in the traditional sense, but rather serve to impart information to the dog. Ron's question was about "a dog that is receiving "mostly corrections", which was the old school way of training - put a choke chain on them and give leash corrections rather than focus on what the dog is doing RIGHT and reinforce that. And if you're doing it right, the dog doesn't know you have a treat "in hand", because you don't always. I think Cressida explained it very well - at first the rate of reinforcement is very high for new behaviors, but drops off once the behavior is learned. I almost never give my dogs treats for doing stuff they know very well how to do and have been doing for a long time. For obeying house rules they get real life rewards instead - sit before going for a walk, before coming in the house, before ball play, before being released to eat meals, etc.

DPU

You have to be faster than a speeding bullet in order not to subject the dog to withholding a treat.

But so what? A treat, by definition, is extra - special, like dessert. Who's to say a dog is damaged by withholding a treat for non-compliance? If anything it's an incentive to work harder, and what on earth could be wrong with that? Isn't that the point of training?

Cassidys Mom

Who's to say a dog is damaged by withholding a treat for non-compliance? If anything it's an incentive to work harder, and what on earth could be wrong with that? Isn't that the point of training?

Me!  I clicker trained a true SA dog and both me and the professional trainer witnessed the very visible frustration the dog experienced when the dog offered a behavior and did not get a treat.  Although this is an extreme case it highlighted the truth about Clicker Training as not being pure and all positive.  To say C/T is only +R and not mentioning -P is a misrepresentation.  Oh, there is damage, be it ever so slight.  A dog being subjected to continuous teasing will effect the dog's behavior.

DPU

Me!  I clicker trained a true SA dog and both me and the professional trainer witnessed the very visible frustration the dog experienced when the dog offered a behavior and did not get a treat.  Although this is an extreme case it highlighted the truth about Clicker Training as not being pure and all positive.  To say C/T is only +R and not mentioning -P is a misrepresentation.  Oh, there is damage, be it ever so slight.  A dog being subjected to continuous teasing will effect the dog's behavior.

 

Interesting....to say the least.....

DPU

Cassidys Mom

Who's to say a dog is damaged by withholding a treat for non-compliance? If anything it's an incentive to work harder, and what on earth could be wrong with that? Isn't that the point of training?

Me!  I clicker trained a true SA dog and both me and the professional trainer witnessed the very visible frustration the dog experienced when the dog offered a behavior and did not get a treat.  Although this is an extreme case it highlighted the truth about Clicker Training as not being pure and all positive.  To say C/T is only +R and not mentioning -P is a misrepresentation.  Oh, there is damage, be it ever so slight.  A dog being subjected to continuous teasing will effect the dog's behavior.

 

Arggghhh!

Who said clicker training is ONLY +R? Do we really have to mention that it's also -P? It's pretty obvious - the dog still has to earn the reward, or he doesn't get it. There is no "hidden truth" about clicker training, no big dark secret. If you have a dog that you believe would be damaged by withholding a reward, then don't! Train some other way! But for the last time - it really, truly, has nothing to do with not meeting your dog's needs.

I still feel like you're not getting the point. It's not about teasing. If you're teasing the dog, you're doing it wrong. You should be setting the dog up to succeed, not to fail. It should be fun. It should be rewarding. You should be using your bigger brain to figure out how to make it fun and rewarding for the dog. If you can't do that, you should be training some other way. And BTW, how exactly do you train?
 

Why do I have to be faster than a speeding bullet with the treat?  They get the verbal treat immediately and my dogs aren't working JUST to get a food treat.  They are very smart dogs who love to learn.  When I work with a new behavior I work one on one so there is no fear of someone ELSE getting the treat,   It's just me and whichever dog I'm working with.  And I am not "clicker training" persay, since I don't use a clicker, I just use the basic fundamentals of CT.  They sure aren't going to turn down the treat, but they aren't going to go pout because they didn't get one.

Tyler will NOT take a treat when he is "working".  When he does the MS Walk or visits the grandma's and grandpa's that boy is "on the job" and he will NOT take a morsel of anything.  Obviously I'm not trying to teach new behaviors in a nursing home setting, but when he first started going there and wasn't familar with all the equipment, I tried to treat him for accepting wheelchairs and motorized carts.  He would have none of it.  Same with the MS Walk....he refuses treats before and during, but, by golly you'd best keep an eye on your pizza AFTER!

My dogs are fed their normal meals twice a day.  Without fail, and normally right around the same time for each meal.  Whether we are going to have a training session, go for a hike in the woods, or "go to work" they are fed pretty much at the same time each day without fail.  And I never know when a training moment will turn up during the day and the unplanned ones work just as nicely as the planned ones.  Their physical need for food has been met long before an opportunity turns up to teach something. 

Yesterday, Theo happened to be the only one in the house.  Everyone else was outside playing and enjoying the nice weather.  I was in the kitchen baking and could have used an extra "hand" so I taught Theo to open the fridge for me.  It was a spontaneous teaching moment, and my bread got a bit less kneading than it probably wanted, but now Theo will open the fridge when asked.  And it was broken down into tiny steps.....and guess what?  He didn't get a treat for every single step....but he got the praise.  And he learned a handy "trick" that can be helpful when I'm busy in the kitchen.

I didn't plan to teach Theo anything yesterday, it just happened.  He is one of my least food motivated dogs, but he loves to learn, he loves the praise and he loves the one on one with me.  Sometimes teaching moments just happen and I try to take advantage of each and every one of them.

I'm not going to not feed breakfast because a teaching moment might pop up.  It isn't about withholding food or not meeting my dogs basic needs.  It's about interacting with them when an opportunity pops up and enjoying the time with them.  Yep, there are treats involved, usually, when I teach a new behavior, but not always.

I work very hard to meet my dogs basic needs....be they for food, water, attention, exercise, whatever.  I have a lot of dogs and they deserve the same things that an only dog deserves.  It really does bother me when someone implies that I'm not meeting their basic needs because of the training method I've chosen.  And I find it kind of rude that anyone would ASSUME that I'm not.

houndlove

I think they think they're training me, not the other way around.

I think so, too. LOL  And that's not meant as a cut. If that's ok with you, it's your choice. For you. But it's not fine for me. I think I would have behavior problems if my dogs thought they were training me.

glenmar

I set my dogs up to succeed and I break the behavior into mini steps so that I am able to constantly treat because there is no way to fail.

 

I understand that people do this. I'm curious, though... what's wrong with a dog failing? Don't they learn from failure? What kind of reality is constant success? It seems so unlike real life to me.

glenmar

It really does bother me when someone implies that I'm not meeting their basic needs because of the training method I've chosen.  And I find it kind of rude that anyone would ASSUME that I'm not.

 

I admit I haven't read every word here, but where did someone imply or assume that you're not meeting their basic needs?

I also set my children up to suceed.  They've done very well with that sort of upbringing.  For example, you wouldn't put a child with special needs into a regular classroom and see if he could handle it.  You START him in a special needs classroom and let him SUCEED there and then gradually mainstream in non academics....non stressful situations....until the child CAN handle a regular classroom.  My youngest son started in just this setting....my STEPson started in a regular classroom....and when he FAILED in a regular classroom, it was much more traumatic for him than just starting in one would have been.

When I'm teaching a new behavior, I want my dogs to "get it".  I want to make learning it fun.  So I want them to suceed and get excited about suceeding.  Once a behavior is known to them, such as the default behavior of sitting when we are walking in town and come to a street, well then, if someone forgets, they get a "too bad" whether I have a treat out or not.  See, mine never know when they might get those treats that are in my fanny pack or my hand.  They never know what default behavior will earn them a treat so they aren't behaving to GET the treat, but rather because this is a default behavior that they've learned in a "no fail" situation.

With Theo yesterday, touching the dishtowel that I tied on the fridge door was easy.  Taking it in his mouth was a little trickier because they aren't supposed to "take" things that are normal household objects.  With him yesterday I encouraged "take" and when he failed "try again".  I guess I expected a bit of failure on that one because they've been taught that things around the house aren't theirs to take, such as my dish towels.

We need to work on this one more to make it 100% reliable and ONLY on command, but he had FUN learning and learning, in my mind, should be fun and not a chore.

some dogs respond well to "no reward markers", but many find them very de-motivating. They aren't necessary- a skilled clicker dog will throw a huge number of previously-rewarded behaviors at you in rapid succession until he hits upon one that approximates what you want. You have to build the skill level, though, gradually and over time until the dog develops a huge number of previously-rewarded behaviors. Using any kind of +P with a dog you want to become a skilled clicker dog is very counter-productive because you want a dog who isn't inhibited or afraid to offer ANY kind of behavior. Let's say you give the dog a collar-pop for lunging and barking at a cat- you've just punished the dog for performing a large number of behaviors, the dog has no idea which one he just got punished for, and you've inhibited him from offering any of a number of behaviors in future (looking at cats, barking at cats, standing on hind legs, stepping off the sidewalk, wagging his tail, the list of possible inhibited behaviors is endless). Dogs rarely are willing to experiment to see which of the possible behaviors earned the collar-pop; but once trained in clicker-training they are willing to experiment to see which of any possible behaviors earns a reward- so you can isolate what you want the dog to do.

When I'm doing a clicker shaping session, the dog gets approximately ten to fifteen treats within the space of a minute or so. The dog is not allowed to fail- at first ANYTHING even remotely close to what you want is clicked and rewarded. If the dog isn't earning treats rapidly your criteria are too high for the dog's current level of understanding. The only time I've seen dogs show obvious frustration (barking, sitting and staring blankly at trainer, etc.) were when the trainer was not performing very skillfully- timing off, criteria too high, not rewarding often enough.

I don't like to feed dogs out of bowls. My dogs all seem to enjoy working for their food- at times during heavy training I've feed ALL of their meals for weeks entirely as training rewards. One dog has been known to ignore food in a bowl in favor of working the busy buddy first, or throwing tricks at me in hopes we're going to "play training". They enjoy it. I believe they know it is a game and fully understand the rules.

DPU

Cassidys Mom

It's not about withholding stuff for doing the wrong thing, it's about giving the dog the opportunity to GET stuff for getting it right.

Explain how the two, withholding and treating are not equal in strength.  The trainng can not take place without the pull of the two.  You ask or wait for the dog to offer the behavior you want.  Dogs are not mindreaders.  The dogs know you have a treat in hand.  The dog offers a behavior but its the wrong one.  You punish the dog by not rewarding. 

This is exactly what houndlove was talking about when she said about novices and clumsy use of the technique. When free-shaping, you FIND something to reward for!  Even if it is the tiniest baby step towards your end goal.  If the dog does not know how to play this "game" he should have been primed for it - you can't explain it in English, but you can "charge" the clicker and play the "box game" to encourage the dog to "throw behaviours at you".  As the dog "gets" it, then the rapid succession of rewards decreases, but this should not be a huge discouragement to the dog, he simply has to work a little bit harder for that treat now.  If it IS a discouragement, you've gone to fast.  As ron said, you need to shorten the segments into more manageable bits for the dog.  At some level, some frustration is likely, but the dog should remain motivated enough to want to work out the "puzzle".  Does this make sense?  So:

DPU

Explain how the two, withholding and treating are not equal in strength.  The trainng can not take place without the pull of the two.

 

I like your wording.  It brings to mind a seesaw, with your rewarding on one side (positive reinforcement; R+) and your withholding on the other side (negative punishment; P-).  You are imagining the fulcim (is that the right word?) being in the middle, with equal amounts of treats and withholding of treats.  This image is incorrect.  At the beginning, the fulcrim is pulled right to one side so that the R+ side is "heavier" - there is a heavy stream of rewards for the dog, you find as much as you can to reward for.  As the dog progresses and as the behaviour is gradually shaped, the fulcrim is pulled back so that there is less rewards and a little more witholding - the dog has got the basic idea now and has to work a bit harder.  Does that make sense? 

Mmm, I really like my own imagery.  I am a "balanced trainer"!!  

I am going to have a bath  now, will finish catching up later.  It's a great thread everyone, really interesting