The Body Language of Dogs

I'm going to agree and disagree.  Yep, when I'm in Petsmart and say hi to a strange dog, the kisses I'm getting aren't kisses.  There I agree with you.  But, when one of MY crew lick my face, it's because they were taught as pups to give "nice kisses" instead of little puppy nips.  I've reinforced NICE kisses since puppyhood and I can ask for a receive one.  BUT, in general, yeah, I agree, but this is the one little trick I've bothered to teach my crew.

But are they licking you as a show of affection (a kiss) or as a display of submission?

What is an agnostic pucker?  

It's agonistic.  It basically means the dog bares its front teeth.

Carla, I do believe that they are expressing affection......or I taught them this trick really well.  Now and then someone will decide to wake me up with "kisses" so I sure don't think they feel the need to "submit" when I'm out like a light.  DH taught them to "give mom kisses and wake her up".......thanks hubby!

Jaia wakes me up the same way. He licks my whole face. When his tongue is over both of my nostrils, it feels a little bit like I'm drowning! LOL I think he's just waking me up. I think in this case, his intent is a little more self-serving than to kiss me. I never taught them to "kiss" me, but I have allowed them to lick my face, particularly my chin, since puppyhood, though, and it's a part of our "greeting". With me, I think it's more submission, or in human language, "Yay! Mommy's home Got anything to eat"?

I'm not so sure all "kissing" from adult dogs is submission- puppies instinctively "kiss" to beg for food and demonstrate submission, and what do we humans do? we coo and pet the puppy. Puppy is getting positively reinforced for kissing. Puppy learns a really good way to get pleasant attention is to offer kisses; and the behavior carries over into adulthood as a conditioned response.

But yeah, many people mis-interpret their dog's behavior: think of all the people who claim their dog is "feeling guilty" when he offers placating signals, or who think that "grin" means happiness instead of stress; or think the stressed anxious dog is exhibiting "dominance" because of his stiff, upright posture.

Cara has never "positively reinforced" the other dogs for licking her mouth. She just stands there with her face jutted out, making it available to them. Yet all three of them continue to do it to her. And Mia is Cara's age (nearly 6 years old). The only time the three lick each others' faces is after a meal containing fish or other deliciously messy item. So, unless it has been taught as a specific behavior or trick, I'm going to go with face-licking as a sign of deference (submission) to the more dominant being, whether it be a human or another dog.

I wonder if this is why neither of my dogs are big lickers--we didn't have them as puppies. I'll get little tiny mouth licks from both of them on rare occasions when they are particularly happy to see me, and I think that is an expression of deference ("We are nothing without you! Pay attention to us! We are like unto tiny puppies in your presence!";), but all three dogs I've adopted as adults (one undersocialized as a pup, one a kennel-raised working dog, so in both of those instances probably dogs that were not reinforced for licking as puppies by their original owners) have never been big into the licking. With Marlowe, it took nearly a year for him to do the licking thing with me. The licking started to happen around the same time that he began to wag his tail in response to things I was doing or my presence (which is a whole other subject entirely--I can't tell you how weird it is to have a dog around the house who doesn't wag his tail ever).

I'm not big on teaching tricks, but "kisses" and "cross your paws" are two things I've actually taught them specifically.

FourIsCompany

Cara has never "positively reinforced" the other dogs for licking her mouth. She just stands there with her face jutted out, making it available to them. Yet all three of them continue to do it to her. And Mia is Cara's age (nearly 6 years old). The only time the three lick each others' faces is after a meal containing fish or other deliciously messy item. So, unless it has been taught as a specific behavior or trick, I'm going to go with face-licking as a sign of deference (submission) to the more dominant being, whether it be a human or another dog.

I completely agree with this, except for one tiny detail.  It is certainly possible that the original behavior Glenda's dogs displayed was submission or deference.  However, it's also possible to put the behavior on command, either purposefully or accidentally, by reinforcing it and adding "give mommy kisses" or some such phrase as the cue.  The reinforcement, for the dog, is anything the dog wants, so could be as simple as attention from Glenda, or as self serving as "hi mom, where's lunch?"  Although, I might expect a paw raise to ask for lunch.

FYI, an agonistic pucker is a facial expression in which the dog bares its canines and its incisors.  Other body language may not be aggressive in appearance - for example the dog that is "making himself small" but still has his teeth bared in this way is probably signaling that he will strike if pressured. 

houndlove

I wonder if this is why neither of my dogs are big lickers--we didn't have them as puppies. I'll get little tiny mouth licks from both of them on rare occasions when they are particularly happy to see me, and I think that is an expression of deference ("We are nothing without you! Pay attention to us! We are like unto tiny puppies in your presence!";), but all three dogs I've adopted as adults (one undersocialized as a pup, one a kennel-raised working dog, so in both of those instances probably dogs that were not reinforced for licking as puppies by their original owners) have never been big into the licking. With Marlowe, it took nearly a year for him to do the licking thing with me. The licking started to happen around the same time that he began to wag his tail in response to things I was doing or my presence (which is a whole other subject entirely--I can't tell you how weird it is to have a dog around the house who doesn't wag his tail ever).

Some of the hounds are hunting dog rejects, like mine.  So, I don't expect that kisses were high on the original owner's list.  Maska does not kiss, but if you go to my profile, you'll see that he does stick out his tongue occasionally.

spiritdogs

I completely agree with this, except for one tiny detail.

I'm not sure what detail you disagree with.  I said, "unless it has been taught as a specific behavior or trick", which I believe is the case with Glenda's dogs.

Oh, and I wanted to add that I have seen B'asia do it to Jaia when they were playing, things got rough and she got a little hurt and scared (it seemed to me). She then licked Jaia's mouth. She's still under a year old (not for long!) so I imagine it's submission as in, "please don't hurt me"! But most of the time, she seems to be dominant where Jaia is concerned. He does have 25 pounds on her, though, so he can hurt her.

Or, whatever you are seeing in your own dog and might want to think about.  And, are the methods we use to train dogs, or alter their behavior, ignoring their efforts at communication?

When Kenya's mouth closes and her ears come forward and stay that way, her head cocks from side to side....other people think this is cute and that she is curious, but I KNOW from experience that this is nerves and if the warning signs that follow this are also ignored, there will be a snap.  Her mouth should only be shut while she is sleeping, lol!  Anything else is stress.  Her warning signs are all facial things like closing and tightening her mouth, panting and avoiding eye contact, yawning or doing little half-yawns, constantly adjusting her mouth/tongue/lips, etc. Besides a few grunts during play, I have never ever heard her growl.  I'm glad she doesn't growl, but sometimes I wish she did because non-dog people never ever seem to notice the visual signs of stress.

When I am working on Kenya's stress, I am careful not to correct her warning signs, even snaps.  Some people might not agree with me, but I don't want to correct her to the point of her not using warnings to avoid correction and going straight to a snap or bite.  We are reading Click to Calm.