Untrainable Dog or Clueless Human?

Hmm. How big is this dog, just out of interest? And what breed?

It's hard to say without seeing your training technique. Timing is really important. Try praising and giving a treat the moment the dog starts to sit, so give him a treat before his butt even makes it to the ground. Clicker training may also help you mark what you want him to do in a way that he can't mistake. There are loads of clicker training threads on this forum if you do a search. I'm not sure if you have a system going where he has to do something for you before he gets anything at all. This is usually called NILIF (Nothing in life is free). The basic premise is that if he wants something, he has to sit before he gets it. It sounds to me like you need to build up your relationship a little. Positive training and NILIF are great ways to do that. Just keep plugging away and spend as much time with him as you can.

The other thing that comes to mind is are you sure he can hear perfectly well? If he can't hear very well, that might explain why he's not picking up on the brilliant conditioning you're doing.

Wrt the furniture, it might be easier to set a ground rule that furniture is a no-go zone, at least until you've established the rules. Alternatively, you could send him to the chair he is allowed to sit on every time you remove him from the couch. Dogs are not good generalisers, so it's easy enough for them in most cases to understand that one chair is okay to sit on but another is not as long as you're consistent. Try rewarding him when he goes to the right chair.

Sounds like you've got your work cut out for you. Keep feeding us more info and keep us updated and we'll try our best to help you. And welcome to the forum.

Its all about communication strategies when the partners speak very different languages. 

Try management strategies to get him on and off furniture using a drag line.  Do training exercises in bursts of 5 to 10 practices but only for a minute or so. 

Try to do these things during natural activiites (sits and downs to get into and out of the door, to get access to food in a dish). 

Plan for one massage session per day when you have some down time, like watching a TV program.  This will also get you the opportunity to develop hands on familiarity which will make body checks easier in the future.

Play the name game (5 treats at a time) 5 times per day.  When dog is looking else where, call name.  If he looks make a big fuss and offer a really, really tempting cookie/treat (in very small pieces).  Repeat 5 times (always wait for him to look away).

Hand feed a portion of every meal when he gives you eye contact.  Dont say anything, just wait.  If he does not look up to give you an eye gaze, take the food close to his nose and slowly move it up toward your nose.  When you get an eye gaze, say "good" and give the piece of food.

Work on building the relationship and there is a high probability training outcomes will improve.

Investigate clicker training.  You don't have to make your dog fat to do it, as you can withhold some of his dinner and use it for training treats.  Anyway, dogs don't care how big the treat is, they care how many they get!  So, tiny, tiny bits are fine.  There are some free lessons at this site: www.clickerlessons.com.  Don't worry so much about the couch yet.  First, establish a means of communication.  The "click" will tell your dog when he has done something right.  If your dog was trained inappropriately before, he may simply have gotten so confused that he quit trying.  Once he figures out that the clicker predicts that he gets a reward, you can lessen the confusion for him.

you might want to try hand-signals at first too instead of words-  dogs really don't come with the idea that verbal language means anything, and if someone failed to clue this dog in as a puppy, he may really struggle to figure this out. But hand signals most dogs catch on really fast.

couch: if you don't want him up there, there is no reason to teach a down command; what you want is to never let him get up there in the first place (supervise and barricade), and reward him for being-in-presence-of-couch but not being on couch. It's fine to let him have a chair, that won't confuse him.

You've got the training minds working here for you ... but (UN-typically for me) I'm going to say just a couple of things that are absolutely at the 'heart' of training:

1.  Prevent, rather than having to scold after.  That means inconvenience for you.  Leash the dog TO you, or leave the dog on a leash IN the house .. but stop him *before* he gets on the sofa.  (and btw .. he really ought to be sleeping in the same room you do -- it's a pack thing). But anything he 'does' successfully, even ONE time, rewards that behavior and undoes what you were trying to do.

2.  Timing - it IS **everything**.  It's got to be SO immediate whether it's a clicker or verbal.  Sometimes you have to engineer behaviors so you CAN reward them. 

Just to add a few thoughts to what has already been said:

1. When you teach him to lay down, what verbal command are you giving? If you say "Lay down" or "down" he could be getting the "down" (off the couch) command confused. Consistency is key. So, use "down" for lay down and "Off" for off the furniture. Or something similar, whatever verbal cues make sense to you, just don't give one word 2 different meanings.

2. If it is ok for him to be on the chair but not the couch, you teach him that the chair is ok. If you find him on the couch, correct him by giving a "nah nah" sound, pull him off the couch by his leash (keep the leash on him for a week or 2 so that you aren't grabbing him by the collar - that's a good way to get bitten), lead him to the chair and say "chair" and entice him up and give him a treat. Eventually he'll get the idea that the chair is his spot.

3. I understand that you have a small space - so do I, but I still have 3 dog beds in my house. The dog doesn't even need a bed. A blanket on the floor can suffice for the dogs spot - if you don't want him on the furniture at all. You can clicker train him to go to his spot and lie down or train him that good things happen in that spot - he gets a kong, a bone, a treat, etc.

Any dog can be trained, but you need to teach them how to learn and how you communicate. Once a dog understands how to learn from you there's no end to what you can train them to do. 

Lots of great advice on this thread.

The only thing I will add is this:  Your dog is as smart or as dumb as you want him to be.  Expect great things from your dog and you will get great things.  

The biggest question you need to ask yourself is "What motivates my dog?"  Answer that question honestly and you'll find the key to successful training. 

As the owner of a breed often referred to as stubborn at best and untrainable at worst, I just want to offer my encouragements and say that you have gotten some dynamite advice in this thread. Whenever I'm talking to someone who seems to be having some difficulty training their dog, I offer up this mantra: "Dogs do what works to get them what they want." Take that as a truism and you can train any dog to do anything. You have control over everything the dog wants (and a comfy place to nap seems to be tops on that list! and yes, I can relate, my coonhound is absolutely ridiculous about his personal comfort levels), which means you also have control over "what works" to get the dog what he wants.

"Sit" is one of the few things I'll use a food lure to teach, as it's such a fundamental skill and I want it taught fast.  Normally, I like to capture (using a marker--I use a clicker--to catch the dog naturally doing something I like and then reward) or shape (rewarding for small baby steps towards a complex goal trick or behavior), but a lure can make a lightbulb go on pretty quick for a simple behavior like "sit". Especially for a dog who is new to training just in general. Take a treat, hold it above his nose and start to move it back over his head. In order to follow it, eventually he'll scoot back into a sit, and at that precise moment, use your praise word (and I'd advise you to pick a word that is easy and natural for you to say, and is short, like "yes!" or "good!" or "yay!" and use that same word every single time), and give him a treat from your other hand. Don't give him the one you used as a lure. Do that a few more times with the food lure visible (and don't start saying "sit" yet at any time--that comes later). Then, keep the lure in your hand, but close your hand around it so it is no longer visible, make the same motion over his head, wait for the sit and use your word and then reward from your other hand. Then you can start doing that with nothing at all in your hand, making the same motions. Over time this will evolve in to a hand signal (you'll find people's hand signals for "sit" tend to be fairly universal, as they often start out as just the motion you make to lure a dog into a sit), and you can start making the gesture less broad and more "symbolic". Verbal cues come after the hand gesture is solid. As mudpuppy pointed out, dogs usually don't clue in to human voices without some serious training towards that goal--it's all a bunch of blah blah blah to them. Once you've got a good response to your hand gesture, then you can go back to saying "sit" as the dog is sitting (not before) and then slowly moving things so that you give the command and then the dog sits. Reward every time (use something cut up very small and healthy and tasty, like Natural Balance food roll which I just can't recommend enough as a training treat) until he really is going gangbusters with the sitting and then begin to reward less and less frequently until the sit becomes just part of your NILIF regimen (as described by corvus).

For the couch thing--an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Think of the couch as another "entity" in your house. You reward the dogs for doing things by giving them what they want, thus they keep on doing those things for you. The couch also is rewarding your dog for doing something (getting up on it) by giving him what he wants (comfort). If you had a neighbor who was coming in to your house and encouraging the dogs to jump up all over him and then rewarding them handsomely every time they did, you would restrict access to that neighbor, right? Well, the couch is that neighbor for you right now. Getting on the couch is a self-rewarding behavior and it's going to keep getting reinforced until you can a) restrict access to the couch at any time when you are not around to deal with the situation (i.e., no more coming upon the dog already engaged in the very rewarding behavior) and b) establish an alternative behavior that offers the same level of reward (comfort) + 1. If the comfort of the couch is an 8 with regards to rewarding the dog, make the chair (or a bed, or whatever) a 9. With his chair (or bed) you can teach "up!" and "off!" commands with a few short sessions. Keep a drag line on, use some small food lures and rewards, use a lot of broad body language (you may find a lure isn't even necessary if you can use really clear body language) and enthusiastic praise, and make that chair the center of the whole fun experience, and use the same kind of sequence as with "sit", starting with primarily hand gestures based on a couple trials with lures, then making the hand gestures more subtle while introducing verbal cues. You want the goal to be instead of the dog looking nervous when you approach, to get that dog thinking, "My human is approaching! Do we get to play that fun "off!" and "up!" game? I love that!" At the end of the day, a lot of where dogs choose to sleep is just habit. If you prepare an alternate spot that is just as comfy as the couch, restrict access to the couch when you are not around for a while, and work on creating this halo of awesomeness surrounding the new sleeping location, a new habit will be created, along with the new "up" and "off" behaviors.

 Good luck! Remember, it's all about communication. A dog does what works to get him what he wants. Communicate clearly "what works" and make sure that doing that gets him what he wants and you'll be good to go.
 

Thanks everyone!

I guess I should have said that he is a neutered Welsh corgi originally. The people we got him from told us that they believe he came from a home in Oklahoma where he was chained up outside all the time. Not sure who or when he was housetrained, but he is certainly not used to being inside a house. He loves it, I think, but common indoor things confound him. The doorbell is still a mystery to him after almost a year and the phone was a source of much head-cocking for weeks as was the microwave and the tv. He still growls furiously at the sound of other dogs on tv (something my other dogs who grew up inside never did), but this doesn't bother us so don't think I am complaining.

He is not your average corgi; he is very tall for his breed. He is still quite short compared to other dogs of his size, but he does not have those little nub legs that are commonly associated with corgis. I have been told by some people that in some part of Oklahoma they purposely breed corgis to have longer legs to herd sheep in rocky terrain. I don't know if he is from this area or if that is even true to begin with, but that isn't important.

He is a very sweet dog and I think we have a pretty good relationship at the moment. He has been with us since July now and is quite loving and very needy when it comes to affection. He wants nothing more than to be right where the humans are and will sit there for hours with his head on your knee being fussed over for as long as you'll let him. He loves strangers, kids, tolerates our bird and the neighbor's cats (he would rather chase them, but knows it's impossible), chews up only his toys and never makes messes in the house. I would say that he is a 9.5 on the dog scale. His faults are minor and I am very grateful for him being who he is.

Someone asked if he is hard of hearing; I do not believe so as his giant corgi ears pick up noises I don't even know exist. No matter how silent you try to be the sound of you eat one cracker will wake him from a dead sleep in the other room and bring him running.

Someone else asked what I am using for my lay down command. Well, since I failed so utterly at teaching him to sit I never got to a lay down command. I have never had any success at teaching a dog to lay down. I had a chow chow that knew to sit, beg, stay, make eye contact and wait to be allowed to eat and come when called even outside and I never got him to lay down. Now some of you might be asking, "If this lady can teach a dog to do all that how come she can't make this corgi sit?" I don't know!! Ha. It was like my chow trained himself. At that time I never read anything about how to train a dog, I just fumbled around and he seemed to understand everything instantly.

Anywho, you guys have given me some things to chew over. I still am very muddled over how to begin with this poor dog, but I think now I will no longer punish him by yelling down at him when he's on the couch. I will barricade it and reward him for being on his chair. Now I want to explain when I take him off the couch I do walk him over to the chair and then lavishly praise him for getting on it.

I think that maybe he is just too sensitive to be shouted at. I forgot to mention he is a very, very nervous dog. And fairly fearful, I think. He will get into bouts of trembling for what I see as no reason. I'm sure he has one, it's just nothing I can see or hear. And I do try to be senstive to his emotions and I don't think I actually "shout" at him, but I try to be stern. Maybe I am making things worse for him by telling him to get down so harshly.

I will look into the clicker training again. I looked at it once before and it seemed complicated and I got overwhelmed and gave up.

Thanks for all the help. If you have more don't hesitate with it! I will read over all your posts again when I get home and try to find a good, gentle place to start training with him.

Ah a corgi! Well, never fear - corgi's are typically very smart dogs that want to do whatever it is you want done. You just need to learn how to communicate with him. Also corgi's can be sensitive dogs so yelling or even a negative tone will make them shut down.

There is a lot of stuff to read on the web about clicker training. You really don't even need a clicker. You can use "YES!" to replace the clicker. The key is to say "YES!" exactly when the behavior happens that you are looking for. Once the dog understands that yes marks what you want, they will go all out to please you. 

Do some internet searching and maybe get a book on positive dog training. 

Clicker training is really only as complicated as you want it to be. Getting a handle on how to teach really basic behaviors with a clicker is pretty simple. Learning all the theory behind it and using it to do more complicated things is more....well, complicated.  

This is a short primer on clicker training that keeps the principles simple and organized without dumbing them down. The page that it is from contains a wealth of other articles from basic to advanced.

This is a more user-friendly short "how-to" typed explanation that includes the steps to get started actually doing it.  

TheWoodChipper

I will look into the clicker training again. I looked at it once before and it seemed complicated and I got overwhelmed and gave up

It will be worth trying again.

You click precisely when the desired behavior is achieved, such as a sit, or off, or down. Then give a treat. When using the clicker, it is always and forever followed by a treat. Eventually, you can fade out the use of the clicker and vary the treats. So, you won't have to use the clicker forever, only when training a new behavior. Some people have dexterity or timing problems using a clicker. You can use a marker that works for you. Yes, a flashlight, a click of your tongue. In fact, it would technically be called marker training because you are marking the correct behavior and the marker always gets followed by a reward. So, I would make the marker word different than normal praise. If yes is your marker, then don't use yes when praising. Let yes be the marker and good boy be the praise.

TheWoodChipper

We made the mistake of tolerating it at first, but now we don't want him up there, so everytime we catch him up there we order him to get, "Down!" and then pull him off by his collar.

Do not do this!!!!!!!!!!!

Just needed some quick emphasis because on a quick read it seems like other people haven't caught this yet. If your dog is a nervous dog, which you said he is, it won't take that much for him to start being afraid of you grabbing his collar, and then he might very well bite you in "self defense." This is very risky behavior, so don't grab at his collar, if you value your hands!!! :)

A better way that your dog might catch on to quicker is to say "Down!" and then toss a treat off the couch. The dog will jump off to get the treat. Then the dog gets lots of praise and affection! Yay, dog, you're so smart!!!!!!  You can also keep a short leash on him at all times and then guide him (don't tug him) down on the ground, then praise him like crazy when he gets down. If he's not getting rewarded for the "down" part, it will be really hard for him to catch on to what it is that you do want, since all you'd be telling him is what you don't want.

TheWoodChipper

...the only thing he is learning is to look nervous when I come into the room as I now spend half my life scolding him.

Since you did get him from a shelter, chances are he was not treated particularly well before you got him. You're right in that he's not catching on, all that he's learning is that sometimes when you are in the area he gets punished for (what to him seems like) absolutely no reason. To him, you're a scary, unpredictable human!

You don't sound like an idiot at all, you're just having some issues with a dog who has some "baggage." I've gone through (and am still going through) exactly the same thing. It just takes a lot of extra sensitivity and some creativity. You're doing a great job in reading up and asking for advice!

My recommendations:

Hire a professional "positive" trainer to help you build confidence in and with your dog, and to teach you some tricks to help your dog learn a little better. Dogs aren't machines, so some methods that work great with some dogs aren't very effective with others, as you're noticing!

Stop punishing/scolding/correcting him. He doesn't understand it and he's already insecure and nervous. Work on some positive reinforcement techniques to help him learn to trust you a little bit better. You're on the right track with barricading the couch while you're gone - manage the environment such that he doesn't have any opportunities to do what you don't want him to do, and then reward him effusively when he does what you want.

I recommend looking into "Calming Signals," a book by Turid Rugaas, as it sounds like it might help you understand your dog a little better. Here's a basic overview of the book: http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1 That website also has a great list of "recommended books" if you're interested. Clicker training might also be a lot of fun for you and your dog.

Good luck, and keep us posted with how it goes :) 

TheWoodChipper

Someone else asked what I am using for my lay down command. Well, since I failed so utterly at teaching him to sit I never got to a lay down command. I have never had any success at teaching a dog to lay down. I had a chow chow that knew to sit, beg, stay, make eye contact and wait to be allowed to eat and come when called even outside and I never got him to lay down.

"Down" is extremely easy to teach using a food lure. Dr. Ian Dunbar has a very good basic training book called How To Teach a New Dog Old Tricks that shows you how to lure behaviors with pictures and everything.

Also, how many times does your dog lay down during the day? There's a clicker technique called "capturing" behaviors which basically means you catch your dog in the act of doing something you want to encourage and you mark and reward it. You can use your voice (Yes!) instead of a clicker. When my dogs were puppies I'd sit and watch them, and when they laid down I clicked and tossed a treat. After doing this several times a day, they were suddenly laying down watching me much more often, in anticipation of a tasty treat. At that point I named the behavior, saying "down" any time I noticed they were just about to lay down. When using a marker timing is important, so you want to catch the exact moment elbows and butt hit the floor, mark it, and then give a treat. You can also teach him to jump ON the couch on cue, and then to jump off on cue, making it a game.

As others have pointed out, you want your laying down on the floor command to be different than your getting down off the furniture command, and be sure to be consistent, whatever words you choose. I use "down" and "off".