The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

If dogs are automatically becoming scared anytime they are forced onto their side or are injured by their owner I would wonder if that dog has a trusting relationship.

yes but you have to set up that relationship of trust first. Let me talk about the last adult rescue dog I took in: she had been treated with harsh "dominance" methods since puppyhood. Instead of becoming passive and shut-down like most dogs treated this way, she became pre-emptively aggressive: I'm going to get you before you get me. She didn't trust humans at all because she had never been taught they were trustworthy. It took us a long time to build enough trust for her to agree to have her toenails clipped, her ears cleaned, burrs painfully pulled out of her coat.

DPU

bringing in rescue dogs is a roll of dice with respect to behavior and how the dog reacts to anything.

I realize this that it's a roll of the dice and I appreciate you sharing your position on it.   I'm not expecting any particular answer, and I don't judge either as right or wrong. I ask out of pure curiosity. So thank you for your opinion on it.

denise m

I have also (unintentionally) caused him pain by tripping over him

denise m, this was a great post. You made some really good points. *a butt scritch and a kiss on the head to you!* LOL 

Those who love each other and live together unintentionally caused each other pain. I don't hold it against them. 

It reminds me of the other night when I got up to go the the bathroom and as I went back to bed, I tripped over something that normally wasn't there. I went ALL the way down and even my face hit the floor! What I tripped over was Jaia. Did it scare him in the moment? You bet! So much so that he leaked on the floor (and I landed in it). But his immediate response (after the pee) was to come to me whining, and sniff me all over and then proceed to lick me to within an inch of my life! He wasn't afraid OF me, just of me falling on him. And he immediately wanted to take care of me. It's because the trust and loyalty in our relationship is very much in tact.

Nobody has a relationship with anyone or anything that is void of unpleasantness. That is part of life. It's part of love.

I have always rescued large breed dogs as adults, from unknown backgrounds, so I'm sure that colors my views on this issue.

Now, causing a dog pain in order to perform a necessary medical procedure, or just by accident (and both I and my dogs are clutzes, so this happens all the time) really I don't think belongs as part of a discussion on rolling or pinning as either disciplinary or pre-emptive "dominance" gestures. Apples and oranges.  With a medical procedure, with a new dog that you don't have a lot of trust stored up with yet, it can be dicey, but medically necessary is medically necessary and you deal with it. If it was something fairly optional like a maintenance toenail-clipping, I would not attempt that with a new dog who showed discomfort with having his feet handled until I'd worked on building trust in that context for a while. And as far as accidents, it happens, and when it does I always apologize. I know the dogs don't speak English but I think they can tell by my tone of voice and posture as I'm apologizing that it was not my intention to hurt them and it didn't mean anything. With a brand new dog you may or may not trigger a fear response because they don't know you and don't know what your "contrition voice" sounds like yet. Depends on the temperament of the dog to a great extent and you just kind of have to roll with that and play it by ear.

Our first dog, Ananda, came to us after having a pretty crazy stressful round of adoptions and returns to the pound with just a rock solid temperament, against pretty much all the odds (including his breed mix, GSD x Akita). He was that one in a million kind of dog. He was so good natured and friendly, you could drop a bomb on his head by accident and he'd just wag and play bow. Having him really did not prepare us in any way for Conrad, who had more issues than the New York Times and takes everything really personally. I suspect he was not at all in any way socialized as a pup, and he takes some special handling. And Marlowe's another thing entirely, solid-tempered like Ananda but serious as a heart attack, and his initial few months with us he was on a serious learning curve going from an outside-only working dog to an inside doted-on pet dog. He bonded very quickly to us I think as a response to the sort of upheaval in his life he had experienced. I can do pretty much anything I want with him, manipulation-wise and he doesn't even bat an eye. He just goes limp like a noodle and unless what I'm doing to him is actually painful, takes a nap.

ron2

My dog thinks the alpha roll is play.

 LOL.  So does Odie.  He will alpha roll himself when he wants his belly scratched.  He will also do it when he sees the dremel because he knows it is nail trimming time and he always gets a treat after that.

I am the one in this relationship who makes the rules and I expect them to be followed. I am stronger and more powerful than you are and I am your leader and mom."

see, this is NOT the relationship I want with my dogs. It is the relationship I had with my first two dogs, and I didn't really care for it. My reasons:

 First of all, they are ALL stronger and more powerful than me, most are even physically larger than I am; even my neighbor's medium-sized dog could beat me in real fight- he has teeth and protective fur, I don't.

Second, I think of training as a game we play together, not something I impose on them. The only aspect of training I consider at all serious is the final steps of proofing the recall. Otherwise, well, they always have the option of not-obeying. I careful set things up so they are almost certain to obey, but if say Baxter would rather not obey, that's fine, that's his choice, he just doesn't get his dinner or get to go outside or get to go for a ride in the truck.

And third, I don't want my dogs to ever think that I may be willing to use extreme violence with them to force compliance- which is what you are implying when you approach dog training with this attitude.

 And fourth, one of the most irritating things that ever happened to me as a child was listening to my mother use the "you do what I say because I'm your mother". I always thought that was really stupid reason for obeying anyone.

probe1957

He will alpha roll himself when he wants his belly scratched. 

Just because I'm picky ... but by definition, doesn't the term "alpha roll" imply that someone or something (the alpha) is taking the action of "rolling" the dog into submission? Isn't an alpha roll a dominance display? If a dog goes into a submissive position on his own, I don't consider that an alpha roll. It's just a submissive display. As opposed to a dominance display, which is what an alpha roll is. I could be wrong, I'm just asking.

mp, when I did "pin my puppies" I was stronger than them. I am not now. But they don't know that.

Secondly. I do impose my rules on my dogs. That way, I don't have to hold their dinner hostage or play manipulation games to get them to do what I want. I would never withhold their basic needs because they didn't do something I asked.

Your third point is an assumption, and a huge and incorrect one at that. I have never and would never use "extreme violence" with my dogs for any reason.

Lastly, my dogs are not children and I doubt VERY MUCH they think I'm stupid. In fact, every indication I have tells me that they think I'm God.  

That way, I don't have to hold their dinner hostage or play manipulation games to get them to do what I want. I would never withhold their basic needs because they didn't do something I asked.

so here we hit the real "divide" in dog training- those who think dogs should obey because "I'm the boss" and those who think dogs should happily work for a living and to earn privelages and extras. 

When I was a kid, when my mom told me to obey her "because she said so and she was mom" it made me angry and I would grumble my way half-heartedly through my chore. If she instead told me I'd get my allowance or TV watching privelages, I was happy to perform the same chore.  

Curious, how many dogs of non-working breeds have you tried to raise in this way?

FourIsCompany

snownose

You should ask people who rescue dogs older than pups.....

 

Well, now I'm curious. snownose, would you do it to adult dogs that come into your home? Why or why not? What are your thoughts and feelings about "pup pinning" or "doggy downing"?

That's a good question.....it all depends on the situation.....if a rescue was a super tough dog I would try anything to save the dog......if it were to stop a dog from dangerous behavior, yes, I would.....but, that's me...I'll try whatever to save an animal, before it would meet a fate that ends in death.

That does exclude "doggy drowning"...I don't have it in me to do something like that.

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edited by amstaffy-admin

12/4/07

mudpuppy

Curious, how many dogs of non-working breeds have you tried to raise in this way?

Cara and Mia are mix breeds of unknown origin. It's just a guess that there is some Rottie and BC in Cara and some sort of Terrier in Mia. They are siblings. So, who knows what's in there. LOL I don't know if they'd be considered non-working breeds or not. But I raised them this way.

ETA: My dogs also happily work for a living and to earn privileges and extras. And I agree, being the "boss" and being their "friend" or equal is just a difference of philosophy in how we raise dogs. To me, it's not a big deal.

snownose, that's "doggy DOWNING" (as in pinning) not DROWNING! LOL  

FourIsCompany

snownose, that's "doggy DOWNING" (as in pinning) not DROWNING! LOL  

LOL....my eyes are playing tricks on me....lol.....

But Snownose would you risk establishing a bite history on the rescue?

snownose

LOL....my eyes are playing tricks on me....lol.....

Let me just tell you that you're not the only one! LOL I'm going to go back and edit that post to make it clear! LOL  

DPU

But Snownose would you risk establishing a bite history on the rescue?

I do believe the answer to your question can be found in her response:

snownose

it all depends on the situation.....if a rescue was a super tough dog I would try anything to save the dog......if it were to stop a dog from dangerous behavior, yes, I would.....but, that's me...I'll try whatever to save an animal, before it would meet a fate that ends in death.

I don't think it's possible to "pin her down" so-to-speak to a response to your specific question. That's just how I see it.

mudpuppy

so here we hit the real "divide" in dog training- those who think dogs should obey because "I'm the boss" and those who think dogs should happily work for a living and to earn privelages and extras. 

I think mudpuppy is right and it's why I think that while on the surface many of our arguments have to do with methodology or one technique versus another, at it's heart I think there is a philosophical divide based on how we see dogs on a really fundamental level. I see dogs as just animals, like any other, and as I'd never expect a cow or a chicken or a killer whale to work with me because I'm just the boss, I also don't really expect that out of my dogs. But if you have a different view of what dogs, that they are different from other animals in some way, then that is probably going to shake out in your training methodology.