The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

Ixas_girl

spiritdogs

Maybe we should not have been discussing the "original technique" at all then, although I certainly defer to sillysally's right to start threads on whatever topic she wants. 

 

I wonder how many people who posted never actually read the original post (on page 1 of this thread) and the OP's description of holding the dog on it's side for vet treatment purposes .

Given the content of the original post (on page 1 of this thread), I can only imagine that posts about some kind of old school violent smash down have more to do with stuff that this thread is not about rather than stuff that this thread is about.

Thank you.

I never grabbed Jack by the scruff and slammed him down.  I actually didn't know this was the "original" way to do it.  I associate the term "alpha roll" with making a dog lay on it's side and keeping it there..... 

corvus

Call me blind and narrow-minded, but it has been my experience that any animal will respond to positive methods if you are patient enough.

I don't know the extent of your experience and if "any animal" includes large parrots.  They bite, they break your skin, they crack your bones, and they can do a lot more.  Positive methods usally work for fear based aggression, but like Snownose, my experience includes quickly knowing when a method is working and when to move on to something else.  For a parrot, the birds learns very quickly that a bite gets a human reaction to stop the activity.  The bite becomes part of its safe environment assurances.  But, parrots are intelligent, have amazing abilities, and always want to be in control.  Through observation, I have seen where the parrot uses that behavior for entertainment purposes, using aggression to get a response.  The bird would throw a tidbit of food out of its cage and a dog would come and get it.  As the dog was getting the food, the bird would scurry down the cage and bite the dog's rump.  The dog would  yelp and go running.  The bird would then giggle, well that part of it was the bird mimicing me.  The dog' never knew when they were going to get a butt bite because the bird would do that part at random times.  The randomness of biting puzzled me until I realized it was the bird having fun.  Just my observation and assessment.

My point of this is that once aggression is part of the dog's way to get what it wants and have control,  it is always there unless rendered neutral.  The sooner the better.  My latest foster named Paganini is dog agressive.  Labeled this by 3 foster families and the vet clinic.  When I introduced Paganini to my pack, Paganini changed in two ways.  She found another way, a better way, to react to fear aggression.  A 40lbs dog against 700lbs of dogs.  And secondly, her subsequent behavior of nipping other dogs was met right back but notched up a bit.  She has no aggression tendencies in my house.  The only positive in the training was that the pack's method worked. 

A dog will always shape it behavior to get pleasure and avoid displeasure.  Doesn't shaping behavior for pleasure include aggression?

I think the point about intent is an interesting one and I don't think it's entirely OT, although I am not so certain why Lost keps harping on at Kim about it when it's quite obvious what Kim meant by the word "intent" in her post... I mean, a knife has no intent, it is the person behind it who does.  But a bread knife is intended to cut bread (non-violent) whereas a sword is intended to maim or kill people (violent).  Sheesh, that was hard.

Now I think it's important here not to under-estimate animals.  I think a great many animals, particularly dogs, CAN tell when you are trying to help them and will tolerate a lot even if they don't like it because they trust you are trying to help them - they understand your intent.  But I also think it is equally important not to OVER-estimate animals (and this is the more dangerous one) because a great many times it is NOT obvious to the dog that you are trying to help him.  It depends on the dog, the situation and just how uncomfortable it makes him versus how well he reads your "intent".  This is where I can see the importance of "energy" that people keep talking about.  I am sure it does make a difference and it does make the manouvure less unpleasant for the dog, whether it is the "alpha roll" (in any of its forms) or any other kind of restraint for any reason. 

As I say, over-estimating yourself or the dog is the more dangerous route; it is better to err on the side of caution.  Now, I am not really all that afraid of being bitten.  So I mite get a bruise, maybe even a bite... oh dear blood and stitches etc. Oo er.  Sigh.  Can't be helped.  There is a risk with any animal, though mostly it's small.  But I do think everyone should be aware of how a bite may affect their relationship with that dog.  I think everyone should be aware of how a bite signals (IMO) a drastic failure on the part of the handler. 

And I REALLY think everyone should ponder how a bite history will hinder the dog if you are only fostering him with a view to finding him a forever home.  I honestly don't think that "this is a tough one and I need to sort him quickly so I can save more lives" is a good reason to use harsher methods.  In fact, I think it should be the opposite.  The "tougher" the dog, the more careful you should be IMO.  Quality is more important than quantity, particularly if a "tough" dog ends up being a liablity in someones elses hands because you did a rush job.  If quantity is more important, let those "tough", higher liability dogs go and focus on the easier, more adoptable ones that have few or minor problems. 

I would NEVER AR a "tough" dog.  Particularly not if I was only fostering that dog.  I think it would be a truly daft move.  You know how a dog often "regresses" on his training when he moves house?  House soiling is a very common example.  One of my dogs has to "learn" over again that the same rules apply with THIS person and THAT person.... not just with me.  Now, our collieX is GREAT at generalising, ANYONE could order her about and she will do it happily.  But lots of dogs are not like that.  Effectively, they need to be "trained" by the next person that, yes, those cues mean the same when I say them too!  I think this is particularly the case with breeds known for being "one man dogs" that velcro to one "special" person and are aloof/ignorant/stubborn with others.  If you use this technique on a dog like this, surely you have to be darn sure that the person who adopts them is ready to do it too, if needed?  Or not?  While I can see the need for restraint for safety or medical purposes I am still struggling to understand how this is valuable from a training and/or psychology point of view. 

Hmmm, good points DPU. Living in a country where large parrots abound, I have to say that they have a huge propensity for mischief-making, and they seem to be happiest when everything in the world is paying attention to them. I've had wild ones quite deliberately break off twigs and drop them on me. They're interesting critters because it seems they are often driven by amusement and they absolutely require that you pay attention to them whenever they want you to. I've vowed never to have one in my house because I've met too many that screech at the top of their lungs if they feel you aren't paying them enough attention. And they don't stop until you come and talk to them, which just tells them that screeching is a good way to get attention!

Anyway, I think you've hit on a good point that sometimes aggression does become a known way for a dog to get what it finds most desirable, and then it's not about fear, but about getting what you want. Like the geese at a park that get fed, and when no one offers them food, they chase the person and steal it. I could be wrong, but logically I think the best way to deal with that is to make sure the dog DOES NOT get what it wants through aggression, but is rewarded for more acceptable behaviour instead. I don't imagine rolling or pinning coming into this unless the dog outright attacks, expecting you to fold and give him what he wants. Has this ever happened to you, DPU?

Dogma, the point I'm trying to make with wild animal comparisons is that if a dog is aggressing because it's afraid, then I consider it to be put in the category of "flight or fight response", which is such a basic, primitive kind of instinct that I would want to treat the dog like a wild animal until it's thinking rationally again. If any domestic animal I deal with is feeling up against a wall and its stress level is such that it feels it has to either get away or fight right now, then I don't think of it as a domestic animal anymore. It's gone into the realms of wild animal until the stress recedes and I can safely approach it again. That's the state I'm talking about in domestic dogs that would make me compare them to a wild animal. Any other time and they are wonderfully dissimilar to wild animals, in that they don't want to bite me or run away from me. Whether I want to live with a wolf is quite beside the point. I think wild animals (hares included) make dreadful pets, which is why I would never voluntarily burden myself with a dog living on the edge of a flight or fight response. And while cows are indeed domestic, they don't especially act like it when they've been raised in the bush and the only person they've ever seen cut their testicles off and took them away from the safety of their herd and their mother. I don't know what Ivan was driven by, but I think he is a bit of an exception to the way I understand animals work. I did meet a cow once who required you to show her what you were made of before she'd work with you. I watched her get into a kicking match with her handler and once she'd made her point and backed down, she was a perfect angel with that handler. If you left her alone, she'd ignore you, but if you expected her to do something for you, she'd physically test your worthiness to ask anything of her. I don't know what her history was, but kindness didn't work with her no matter how patient you were because she didn't feel compelled to avoid confrontation like animals that are afraid usually do. I was specifically talking about dogs that are aggressing because they are afraid because most dogs I have seen like that have been afraid.

corvus

but logically I think the best way to deal with that is to make sure the dog DOES NOT get what it wants through aggression, but is rewarded for more acceptable behaviour instead. I don't imagine rolling or pinning coming into this unless the dog outright attacks, expecting you to fold and give him what he wants. Has this ever happened to you, DPU?

The dog has learned to get what it wants by using aggression.  Rewarding for acceptable behavior and fulfilling the dog's needs is always a good way to go.  For some dogs that I have fostered, putting aggression aside in favor of rewarding acceptable behavior still keeps aggression as part of the dog's optional behavior and IMO takes a long time, delays trust, and forces a managed environment.  As I saw from observing my pack, when aggression is met with power and substance, be it a message to calm down or a threat, aggression becomes a non choice.  Almost immediately Paganini responded with changed behavior.  Paganini is introduced to the pack every day because while I work, the pack is separated into groups.  I can see an aggressive tendency in her each time but each day it diminishes, and I am talking only days.  Now her next step is to go out and meet dogs in public.  The problem will not be Paganini but the other human handler interferring with the natural meeting of dogs. 

If I can continue with my experience with parrots, I was told when a parrot bites you, you are to push in rather than pull out.  Pushing in gives the parrot displeasure.  Now to solely use your recommendation of just rewarding acceptable behavior, I have to ignore the bird's hold on my finger and the pain, and then trade for, we'll say roast beef.  Now if the roast beef is a lesser value than my finger, then I got a problem because I am in the situation.  Being in a situation where aggression is present requires urgent and immediate action.  What to do now.  You proved it with your story of the puppy behind the couch.  Anytime for the reward method while you were in that situation?  If doing the alpha roll as Carla describes helps teach the dog at an early age about when/when not to use aggression, then maybe the dogs would not have these social problems in their adult life. 

I have never had a dog threaten or attack me for something that I could give to add to its pleasure.  It seems to be only when the pleasure is taken away or withheld.  The choice of behaviors for the dog to get what it wants is determined by the dog's experience with the reaction.   So I could see a dog not choosing aggression to get a belly rub but using aggression to get to a juicey roast beef out of my hands.  Or even better, I can see dog not choosing aggression to get a betty rub but I can see a dog use aggression to continue a belly rub.

I do think with the puppy behind the couch that pinning him probably made no lasting impact on him one way or the other. But it's possible that he did learn from experiences like that that aggression doesn't work on the people in the house, because he never tried it much after he was around the 12 weeks age and it didn't work. He did try it on other people later, though, and it did work. My rabbit, Bonnie, one day decided to express her fury with me over moving things in her cage by charging down and biting my knuckle hard enough to draw blood. I whipped my hand back, naturally, but then pretended like nothing happened and continued moving what had caused her such outrage. I did compromise with her and move it to somewhere she felt she could live with it being, but she has never bitten me or anyone else since. Kit did the same thing when he was a baby. it was easier not to react because he had baby gummy hare teeth at the time, but he's never tried it since, either. However, when my brother's kitten climbed up my bare legs, she got flung across the room. I didn't consciously decide to do that, but all the same, she never did it again and it didn't have a lasting impact on our relationship. So yes, I can understand where you need something a little more forceful than ignoring the behaviour. If I can bare the pain or ignore the behaviour, I won't react, but if I do react for whatever reason, I think a stronger message is a good idea. I do like it when dogs can deliver the stronger message rather than myself, though.

I think whatever the animal, when you decide to live with it, life becomes a series of compromises. I work by the idea that I draw a line and I won't accept aggression or bossiness because that's not how we get what we want in my world, but I will take note and change things if I can to make the likelihood of a recurrence of aggression or bossiness lower. So although I still moved Bonnie's hay rack that she'd spent all morning prying off the side of her cage, I moved it to somewhere she wouldn't spend the next few hours prying it off the side of her cage again. She never felt a need to bite me over it again and I never felt a need to move it again. We all win. Maybe with a situation like the puppy behind the couch, had I lived with him I might have pinned him to say we don't use aggression to get what we want because it never works, but then I might have moved the couch next time so he didn't feel a need to resort to aggression.

Should I ever find myself in a position, say, where a dog has decided to bite me because I stopped giving belly rubs, I imagine I would be so shocked that I'd react on instinct and forcefully remove the dog from my person by whatever means works. If it was a quick bite and the dog has already fallen back, is there a need to do anything? It's over with. Isn't it the best thing to do to just walk away so there are no belly rubs as a result of biting, and no attention at all? My experience has been that animals pick up pretty fast when something is resoundingly not working and even faster if it's not only not working but getting them the exact opposite of what they were hoping it would get them. I haven't met a dog that specifically wants the opposite to a pin or roll, whatever that might be, but then, I don't know what a dog really sees a pin or roll as. Perhaps fearful dogs want the exact opposite to a pin or roll, but if the dog is fearful, it then falls into the fight or flight category where I don't want to use any force whatsoever if I can help it and would rather rely on patience. I feel like this discussion is starting to go around in circles! I think I need to get myself untangled and perhaps then I'll make more sense.

lostcoyote

no, km, what i do believe here is that i showed an incorrect claim made by you and that your ego does not want to admit being wrong....and so you simply justify it as being off topic so that you can walk away without having to be strong and admit that there might be that possibility of being wrong.... a cop out at best..... - audieau

You convince yourself of many things, Lost. I proudly invited you to send me a PM to continue this OT, where it belongs and where I can answer you perfectly well about my "claim". You have yet to take up that offer, so I think please don't tell ME what speaks volumes, that screams volumes - there is no intention for a genuine answer, rather just one more attempt to pick a fight. Until I see a PM with your question, I have nothing more to say to you. Good day.

DPU

If I can continue with my experience with parrots, I was told when a parrot bites you, you are to push in rather than pull out.  Pushing in gives the parrot displeasure.  Now to solely use your recommendation of just rewarding acceptable behavior, I have to ignore the bird's hold on my finger and the pain, and then trade for, we'll say roast beef. 

I've worked with a total of three parrots, so my experience is limited. *G* But one of those parrots developed a biting issue. The key word is "was". Using the exact same techniques I would on dogs, with the difference being that I was tuning into avian language rather than canid language, I completely stopped the biting simply by
a) reading to what the parrot was telling me
b) not putting it in situations in which would provoke a bite, and slowly working up to those situations in a desensitizing manner.
c) improving the relationship and fulfilling the parrot's needs as a parrot
d) rewarding for proper beak behaviours.

Honestly, I taught my MoJo bite inhibition, just as one would a puppy, by letting her know when she was using it too roughly, and when she was using it appropriately.

But besides that, now at this day, she will nibble and tongue and play with my fingers and nails, and has not attempted to bite me. Ever, not once. Even if something upsets her or bugs her (going back into the home is not as fun as staying out and playing - and I'll say outright that Mojo is free-flighted, I don't clip wings, as I do believe in working naturally - the only time  MoJo had clipped wings was when I brought her home as the were done then) she will not bite. I trust her 100% and she nibbles my ears, plays with my eyelashes, investigates my nose, plays in my hair. For being a species that is well known or its attitude and beakiness, I'd say the "method" employed worked wonderfully. I've never heard of pushing in rather than pulling away when a bird bit you, it's an interesting concept, but thankfully I'll probably never have to employ it!

DPU

The dog has learned to get what it wants by using aggression.  Rewarding for acceptable behavior and fulfilling the dog's needs is always a good way to go.  For some dogs that I have fostered, putting aggression aside in favor of rewarding acceptable behavior still keeps aggression as part of the dog's optional behavior and IMO takes a long time, delays trust, and forces a managed environment. 

For dogs like this, people who use OC terminology say that this is an "operant" form of aggression, meaning that it is aggression that can be dealt with through learning rather than using CC techniques. Since it's not based out of fear, it does take a different strategy. You mentioned that rewarding acceptable behaviour and fulfilling the dog's needs is a good way to go. I agree. Then you mentioned that it still leaves aggression as an option.  That may be so, for some dogs if you don't teach the other half of consequences - removal of the desired stimulus. In other words, if the dog knows it is rewarded for the good stuff, and is P- for the bad stuff (the pushy, or aggressive behaviour), it will very quickly lose aggression as part of its toolbox, the behaviour will be replaced. Well-performed P- (removal of what the dog wants) can be very effective in cases like this.

You do have to be careful though, because operant aggression (dogs that have learned that acting in certain ways gets them what they want) can become classically conditioned as well, so that the mere sight of something (the CS) can bring on the arousal, adrenaline, and hormone release (the US) that goes along with aggression (the CR), before the aggression occurs, which predisposes the dog to act out with aggression sooner (CR). In cases like that, it might take some classical conditioning such as counterconditioning, to change the dog's internal state before working on the operant.

This is not a reflection of what you do, but it's a perspective of what I might do with such a dog, if there was a problem. Different ways to reach the same goal and end result, if you will. I wasn't going to reply, as I thought it might be OT, but since aggression ties in with this discussion of alpha rolls, I figured it was relatively topic-like. If not, my apologies!