The Alpha Roll--purpose and effectiveness?

Admin speaking...

This is the last in-thread warning to stay on topic (Alpha Roll: Purpose and Effectiveness) and to stop baiting and bickering with each other.  Further warnings will come privately from me, and if necessary I will lock this thread temporarily to give you all a chance to think about what a suitable post to this thread might be. 

.:.

snownose

I have nothing against clicker training.....I just don't think it is "Needed" to properly train a dog.....

Me neither, but I definitely think it's a good tool, and can be especially helpful with reactive/aggressive dogs. Do you think alpha rolls are "needed" to properly train a dog?

chelsea_b

Do you think alpha rolls are "needed" to properly train a dog?

I'll insert myself again into another's question. I don't think alpha rolls are needed to properly train a dog, generally. There's an outside chance a few might have been helped. When I say alpha roll, I don't mean holding a pup until he/she calms down or settles. I mean grab the scruff, apply pressure until the dog is down and then, having the dog roll onto his/her side or back for the purpose of showing dominance or a correction or punishment. I got Shadow when he was a little over a year old, in the middle of adolescence and the only "trick" he knew was to sit and shake paws. You couldn't recall him. If his friend, Duke (the JRT) was around you had better luck. Duke would recall and Shadow would follow. He was fed food that even I wouldn't feed out of a bowl suitable for a small puppy. So, we had an "eating disorder" to overcome, right off the bat (time and patience, or reconditioning). No toys. Bought from a puppy store at the age of 6 weeks. I think his fear of kennels is rooted in his pet store experience. When I had him neutered, the overnight kennel stay was more traumatic than the surgery. He was used to rough play with our friend's son, who's girlfriend gave him to us. But I didn't know any better.

I have AR'd him for jumping on people and for fighting with my parents'-in-law Lhasa Apso (that was the time I gave him a hard pin). It stopped it for that visit. Next visit, same problem. And my timing was off. Since he was a good 30 feet from me, I did it when I caught up to him. But I didn't know any better. For jumping on people, I would pin and sometimes roll him, saying no. Release and he would get up and do it again. It's a game, to him. "I jump on people and we get to wrestle." My thinking is, I control you and you do what I say. His thinking is, this is a fun game, as long as it includes wrestling. I did it without fear or hesitation. To no avail. He would quit when he got tired or I finally remembered to give a command, such as sit, which had been trained before with treats, I think, by his previous owner.

His behavior has gotten better since I did away with such physical corrections. It turns out that he does better when I tell him what I want him to do, rather than what I don't want him to do. Pinning him didn't tell him what I wanted him to do and did not effectively tell him what I didn't want him to do. I lucked out. In the case of the Lhasa Apso, he would be a little leary of ticking me off and try to figure out how to behave but he didn't connect it with fighting the other dog. He could have been not leary at all but reactive to avoid that scene again.

chelsea_b

snownose

I have nothing against clicker training.....I just don't think it is "Needed" to properly train a dog.....

Me neither, but I definitely think it's a good tool, and can be especially helpful with reactive/aggressive dogs. Do you think alpha rolls are "needed" to properly train a dog?

If you read all 27 or 28 pages you will get your answer as to how I feel about alpha rolls.....

I think a lot of the problems going on in this thread here towards the end are that you guys are trying to take something like clicker training and compare it to an alpha roll.  If using an alpha roll, you are not "training" the dog--that is a type of doggie psychology not a training method. 

.:.

corvus

Uh huh, I don't need to take drugs to know they're not for me. I don't have to smoke to find out that it's bad for your health. I don't have to perform an alpha roll to know it's a method I never want to touch on an adult dog.

True, but using drugs and cigarettes as example could give a negative connotation to the alpha roll, lets say that a person does not like sky diving and that person knows he/she is never going to do it because it would be really scary, fair enough BUT that does not make sky diving a bad thing and that person could not give a 100% real point of view on what the real purpose, feeling, etc is because he/she has never done it, you HAVE to do it to have the credibility of saying: THIS is what happened to me, THAT is what its about for me, if that person didnt like it, thats fine, some others love it, now some others are "professional sky divers commentators" and give their point of view when they have NEVER even done it once

What would you say to somebody who starts talking bad about Australia for what that person has heard from others but has never been there in person? Wouldn't you tell that person to first visit the country to form his/her own real opinion? What if that person still does not want to go because in not for him/her? Would you still take his/her opinion as a valid opinion about Australia?

Yes Lori, you're correct. Training is a separate issue, IMO.

There is no one specific manuever for a specific means in restraining a dog, temperment testing, puppy rolls, Ian Dunbar's technique, the Monks "alpha wolf roll over", CM's putting a dog in a submissive position, or what I and others also use to remove a socially messed up dog's ability to bite when they are out of control and need to be returned to reality.

Although I will discuss these different philosophies and techniques on a dog board, I will never recommend someone do any of these manuevers without the aid of experienced professional help in person by someone who knows what they are doing.

The dog I restrained enough to keep from biting me (while I gave him a chance to start thinking) thought of humans as play things and did not take me seriously. I put no excess pressure on him...simply removed his ability to bite while he had his hissy-fit extinction burst. I believe most animals are smart enough to not waste energy on fruitless efforts. I restrained this dog several times within a 24 hour period...and then the lights started going on. The turnaround has been amazing. I will say that once when he was on the ground and I was talking calmly to his owner, he actually fell asleep!

I find this technique to be effective for me because of the connection I have with the dog. This dog was headed for death and now his owner is so grateful she rescued him and gave him another chance. He's a pistol, he's full of energy, an he's a wonderful dog who got a second chance.

Are there brutal trainers and ignorant folks who misuse and misunderstand this technique? Yes.

Are there people who know how to do this correctly to help a dog have a new life? Yes again!

Okay, then, let's use a real life example. I say to my boyfriend I want to sell my car and get a motorbike, but there's no point in me doing this if he won't ever ride it because I won't be replacing the car, I'll be taking it away. The boyfriend says he'll never get on a motorbike. I say why not, he says they're dangerous and scary. I can see how someone would think that even though I don't agree with it, so I accept what he's said and agree to hold onto the car. To liken this with the alpha roll idea, my boyfriend has never been on a motorbike and never will as far as he's concerned, even if I drive. I can't argue with that. If he doesn't want to he doesn't want to. I'm not going to ignore his opinion and feelings on the subject just because he's never even been on a motorbike. That's ridiculous. Just like I'd never ignore someone who told me smoking is bad for you even if they'd never smoked themselves, and I'd never ignore someone who thought a particular movie would be good to see even if they hadn't yet seen it. If someone can tell me why they do or don't want to do something, and it's not completely irrational, then you can bet I will take it on board, even if they have no personal experience to draw from. I respect the reasoning powers of my friends.

Plenty of people talk bad about Australia without having been there. The beauty of being Australian is that we tend to find that tremendously funny. We're very good at laughing at ourselves. If someone is saying something that's UNTRUE about Australia, sure, I'll correct them. Maybe if they're sensible, they'll listen to me and if they find my alternative reasonable and can see how it might be true, then perhaps they'll believe me. But then, if I tell them to watch out for drop bears in Australia and smear vegemite on their faces so the drop bears will leave them alone, then should they believe me just because I live in Australia? People see different things from their experiences. A smoker might tell me that nothing is better than the first smoke of the morning. Nothing at all. I've actually heard this one. It didn't make me want to smoke. Another smoker told me the first smoke of the morning was a hated thing for them because it tasted revolting and made them dizzy. That sure did make me not want to smoke! When all is said and done, experience only counts for something if it sounds reliable or I can imagine it somehow, or if it confirms what I already believe. I won't try an alpha roll on an adult dog regardless of the experiences of others with it because I'm true to myself. That doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't present my various reasons for not wanting to do it, and it doesn't make those reasons automatically void just because I've never tested them. Some sensible folks might see some sense in my reasons.

I just want to chime in and say that I agree with willowchow, also. Dog psychology does not equate to "training". I am relieved to see that this is an opinion many share.

Angelique

Although I will discuss these different philosophies and techniques on a dog board, I will never recommend someone do any of these manuevers without the aid of experienced professional help in person by someone who knows what they are doing.

This is a very important point because I believe the technique can be performed incorrectly and it could very well have negative consequences all around. It's like some techniques in other aspects of life in that, performed incorrectly, it can be dangerous, but performed correctly, it can save a life. That doesn't make the technique bad. It just means you need to either make absolutely sure you know what you're doing, or else find someone who does.

I would advocate a diet and exercise program for someone who was overweight, but I would also urge them to see a doctor if they didn't know exactly what they were doing.  

Excellent post, Angelique.  

I wanted to add that the alpha roll isn't applied in a normal training structure.....it is used on out of control dogs where everything else has failed....now, that doesn't apply to the "Gentling" techinique for unruly puppies....

.....it is used on out of control dogs where everything else has failed....

that's the last kind of dog who should be alpha-rolled. You're still confused and think dogs actually interpret the alpha-roll in the way you want them to- they don't. All it is is a dangerous method of teaching a dog you're willing to inflict violence on them for no reason. A seriously out of control dog isn't going to quietly submit to being alpha-rolled, and is very likely to decide to get you good next time you approach the dog. A seriously out-of-control dog needs training, possibly medication, not pinning. Pinning a puppy who is having a temper tantrum may be effective in stopping the temper tantrum, but it teaches the puppy nothing. Better to prevent temper tantrums; most are due to over-tired and confused baby dog who needs to be put to bed, not held down.

mudpuppy

You're still confused and think dogs actually interpret the alpha-roll in the way you want them to- they don't. All it is is a dangerous method of teaching a dog you're willing to inflict violence on them for no reason.

And you are still confused as to how it's done.......maybe we should use the term "Gentling".....

espencer

silverserpher

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Well if i was using a clicker to teach my dog how to sit on command and she never learned, what would you accuse me for?

Ron, yes, i dont ask you because actually you DO have some experience about it, you have been there, you dont talk based on other people's opinion or assumptions and thats why i consider that your opinion does count

Did you do it correctly?, maybe, maybe not. Perhaps you never felt comfortable doing it and therefore that technique was not for you but at least you tried, some people seem to be so sure about what happens, the outcome, etc. and they never even tried it!!, how can i listen the opinion of those people? what do you think is their credibility on this specific subject when they make such assumptions?

 

I'm trying to catch up after a couple of days away and I am getting confused.  On the one hand I am getting the impression that this is a move for aggressive dogs, not a routine thing and that you should get a professional to assist you or do it for you to ensure its done correctly.  But here, ron is getting kudos for trying it himself....?  If most of us are to agree that this is a move for a professional, how can we discuss it AT ALL unless in terms of what we have heard, seen or read rather than done ourselves?  Espence have YOU done it yourself, on what kind of dog, what kind of situation, were you taking the CM show as a guide and if so did you enlist the help of a professional as the disclaimer on that show says?  I admit to being totally confused here as to what other posters are deeming acceptable.... in fact, *I* am confused over whether *I* think it's acceptable... the jury is still out for me.  I am not convinced.